114 days; Part II

Anything related to the Kizashi can go here, but please look at the other headings first. Your topic may fit better under something else.
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Ronzuki
Posts: 2382
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:33 pm
Location: Lancaster County, PA

Biggest problem with all of this electric hybrid techno car crap is many mechanics are barely just that, mechanics. Hence all the negative 'stealership' posts across the automotive forums. They're not electrical techs, engineers or programmers. When things go wrong, and they will with all of the Mexican/Chinese made electrical crap being dumped into cars, the 'average mechanic' has no clue what to do to chase an electrical system problem down to the root cause(s) to totally resolve the issue other than possibly by dumb luck or parts darts. There are a handful out there, but not many. I see it every day in industry. We train and train and train mechanics to deal with a given machine or process' controls, and yet, many still don't get it. Literally, deer in the headlights.

A great example is my brother, the certified automotive mechanic. He is a very good, experienced and knowledgeable "mechanic", not an electrician or electronics tech...He's got the bare minimum knowledge and knows one end of an ohm meter from the other. That's about where it ends. Sure the diag 'puters help guys like him tremendously, but, he usually calls me when he has electrical problems with his cars, house whatever that he can't resolve. Mechanical issues, I get him involved (mostly because he has the correct tools ;) ). The real issue is the lack of theory and understanding which can, and does, cause further problems to be induced during troubleshooting.

WESHOOT's market analysis info is probably reflective of this fact.
Ron

2010 Kizashi GTS, CVT, iAWD (3/10 build date)
2011 SX4 Premium Hatch, CVT, iAWD (12/10 build date)
2018 Mazda CX-5 iAWD Touring
2014 Wrangler JKUW (GONE, traded :D :D )
1991 Samurai, 5-Speed, EFI, Soft-Top ( :| sold)
User avatar
Ronzuki
Posts: 2382
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:33 pm
Location: Lancaster County, PA

WESHOOT2 wrote:And I'll probably still be looking for a low-mile used Kizashi.......
Well ya better start looking now and snatch one up to have in the wings ready to go....
Ron

2010 Kizashi GTS, CVT, iAWD (3/10 build date)
2011 SX4 Premium Hatch, CVT, iAWD (12/10 build date)
2018 Mazda CX-5 iAWD Touring
2014 Wrangler JKUW (GONE, traded :D :D )
1991 Samurai, 5-Speed, EFI, Soft-Top ( :| sold)
WESHOOT2
Posts: 1976
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:37 pm
Location: Vermont

I'll be patient and continue enjoying the one I have now..........
Who knows what may turn up here as a trade.







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User avatar
KuroNekko
Posts: 5172
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:08 pm
Location: California, USA

Ronzuki wrote:Biggest problem with all of this electric hybrid techno car crap is many mechanics are barely just that, mechanics. Hence all the negative 'stealership' posts across the automotive forums. They're not electrical techs, engineers or programmers. When things go wrong, and they will with all of the Mexican/Chinese made electrical crap being dumped into cars, the 'average mechanic' has no clue what to do to chase an electrical system problem down to the root cause(s) to totally resolve the issue other than possibly by dumb luck or parts darts. There are a handful out there, but not many. I see it every day in industry. We train and train and train mechanics to deal with a given machine or process' controls, and yet, many still don't get it. Literally, deer in the headlights.

A great example is my brother, the certified automotive mechanic. He is a very good, experienced and knowledgeable "mechanic", not an electrician or electronics tech...He's got the bare minimum knowledge and knows one end of an ohm meter from the other. That's about where it ends. Sure the diag 'puters help guys like him tremendously, but, he usually calls me when he has electrical problems with his cars, house whatever that he can't resolve. Mechanical issues, I get him involved (mostly because he has the correct tools ;) ). The real issue is the lack of theory and understanding which can, and does, cause further problems to be induced during troubleshooting.

WESHOOT's market analysis info is probably reflective of this fact.
I hear you about the technology exceeding the knowledge and training of many mechanics, but it's simply an inevitable fact that cars will get more electronically sophisticated as they become more electronic than mechanical. In fact, it may be a good thing regarding repairs as electric cars have less moving components therefore less things to likely break. High tech EVs like Teslas even get updates automatically via wireless internet, improving the vehicle like updates for your computer or smart phone, minimizing service visits for issues.
While I agree with you about the reluctance of taking an electrified vehicle to a mechanic, the good thing is that electrified cars are statistically less likely to need frequent visits to a mechanic. They happen to be the most reliable cars for their respective brands (like the Chevy Volt, Ford Fusion Hybrid, and the Toyota Prius) and because they use the engine less frequently, they actually require less frequent maintenance.

The dialog reminds me somewhat of the persuasion I had to do with my parents to finally get them to move from their conventional cell phones to smartphones. They were already over a decade behind everyone in getting cell phones in the first place so it was a challenge. Given that they frequently travel between the US and Japan, it made more sense for them to use smartphones that had wifi capabilities and apps like FaceTime and Skype. They resisted for years and idiotically paid for long distance calling, dismissing the benefits of smartphones as irrelevant or hard to use. The phone bills kept going up because the phone companies were changing their plans for smartphone data users and even if you didn't use data with a normal cell phone, the calling plan prices kept going up to reflect the majority that did.
About two years ago, they finally evolved and got iPhones. They learned how to use them rather quickly and now enjoy emails, family group texts with photos, news, web browsing, FaceTime, Skype, Youtube, and all the other stuff right on their phones. In fact, they are on their phones more than me these days.
:roll:
I think new technology can be scary at first but once you realize the convenience and benefits of it, you start changing your mind. For example, I really like the idea of paying significantly less than cheap gas to power my vehicle and having it charge up while I slept at night or worked at the office; no longer having to go to the gas station for fuel. In fact, many people who own both an EV and a conventional ICE vehicle admit they end up driving the EV more because it's more convenient (and cheaper to operate) for the vast majority of their driving needs.
2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport GTS 6MT (Black)
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Ronzuki
Posts: 2382
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:33 pm
Location: Lancaster County, PA

I'd be fine with it all if I traded vehicles in every 2-3 years. However, my finances don't enable that or a Tesla. If $$$ wasn't an issue, I could then care less that my smart car gets bricked by a software update or electrical malfunction and no one can get it to run again. Unfortunately, my concern is long term ownership, and costs, beyond warranty periods. The tech industry is changing things in our world far too fast for our own good. Because, you see, that's what keeps the money rolling in, planned obsolescence. The masses are addicted and can't stop with the gotta have the latest and greatest gizmos.

Many of my customers are constantly wasting money 'upgrading' control systems because existing components, that aren't terribly 'old', fail (poor quality) and are no longer available as direct replacement spares because they've adopted the consumer goods mentality (planned obsolescence). Often this occurs before the ROI on the initial investment is even realized. Then, you see, its my fault for designing and supplying a system that is obsolete before it should be. I have no control over the constant changing of platforms and components for no real good reason other than the manufactures get to sell more stuff. Autos are headed in the same, exact, direction and I'm not looking forward to it at all. They'll soon be viewed as throw-away, without a throw-away price of course, as are many other household items that were once designed and built to last a lifetime. You'd better have a large checkbook balance and a crap-ton of patience while your vehicle acts like many other high-tech devices.
Ron

2010 Kizashi GTS, CVT, iAWD (3/10 build date)
2011 SX4 Premium Hatch, CVT, iAWD (12/10 build date)
2018 Mazda CX-5 iAWD Touring
2014 Wrangler JKUW (GONE, traded :D :D )
1991 Samurai, 5-Speed, EFI, Soft-Top ( :| sold)
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KuroNekko
Posts: 5172
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:08 pm
Location: California, USA

I agree with a lot of your sentiments and see the value in a simplified machine designed to run on little other than fuel, but being a bit of a geek, I get excited about new technology. However, I'm also one that values longevity and not one who likes the idea of "planned obsolescence". I'm quite known among my friends and family for keeping things for a ridiculously long time and in good condition. So these issues are of importance to me as well. For me, the reassuring aspect is that despite the newer technology with electric motors and batteries, automakers are actually designing them for reliability and use after a warranty period. I believe this notion is especially strong with the Japanese brands given they have designed their ICE vehicles likewise for decades. Toyota hybrids are well known for their long service life and batteries typically last about 200,000 miles before needing a replacement. By then, most people, regardless of what they drive, would have replaced their entire car. From what I've read of Ford's hybrids and GM's Voltec, they also have a good record of long-term reliability and service life as exemplified by everyone ranging from private owners to taxi fleets. So it's not just a Japanese thing.
For example, here's an article on a man who has hit 300,000 miles on his first-gen Chevy Volt.
https://transportevolved.com/2016/03/08 ... wer-alone/

Even newcomer Tesla has a very good record for battery life even with their first model, the Roadster, which had even a simpler battery than their Model S. This article discusses some research and other topics of battery service life in EVs, especially Teslas:
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/109 ... -over-time

So while I agree with your notions, the data and research out there is simply showing that longevity, reliability, and service life aren't faults of EVs and PHEVs and on the contrary, they actually do much better than ICE vehicles and especially their transmissions. It's very rare for a motor or even a battery in a hybrid or an EV to fail under 100,000 miles. In contrast, turbocharged engines, CVTs, DCTs, etc. are rather infamous for catastrophic failures before that mileage. So while I agree with you about the virtues of longevity and simplicity, it's turning out electrified vehicles are doing it significantly better than modern ICE vehicles.

For me, the main criticism of EVs and PHEVs is how they actually benefit the owner. I don't think they are for everyone. If one lived in a rural area with long commutes at highway speeds, then an ICE may be better (though that Volt article showed otherwise). If one was ultimately looking to save money then electrified vehicles don't have a very fast return on investment as they generally cost more. However, if one can afford the technology and their driving conditions are suited for them, I think there are many positive attributes. This is why I'm a fan and will certainly be looking into this technology after my Kizashi.
2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport GTS 6MT (Black)
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Ronzuki
Posts: 2382
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:33 pm
Location: Lancaster County, PA

I used to be a geek like you as well. It's how I got into what I do for a living. Used to be extremely reliable, deterministic and repeatable. Totally different atmosphere. Now and based on experience, then and now, I simply don't have the faith in the tech any longer. I received so many 'annomaly' notifications, at an ever increasing frequency the last few years, on components I've used that are in service all around the world it's mind-boggling. I could spend my entire life notifying whoever ended up with those parts there are issues. Who's going to compensate my company or my customer for the negative affects of the anomaly? I gave up reading them. Don't have the time.

If/when any of this nifty new and supposedly better tech takes a dump in a vehicle I rely on daily, I'm at the mercy of whoever to get me up and running again, whenever they can figure it out, if they can figure it out...and at what cost to me? Don't relish that 'unknown' at all. It all looks good on paper until the reality sets in. The Samurais have very basic ECMs. Even w/o schematics I was able to open it up, see the leaking capacitors, order some better spec ones, solder them in and off she went. Won't be able to do that now or in the future that's for sure.
Ron

2010 Kizashi GTS, CVT, iAWD (3/10 build date)
2011 SX4 Premium Hatch, CVT, iAWD (12/10 build date)
2018 Mazda CX-5 iAWD Touring
2014 Wrangler JKUW (GONE, traded :D :D )
1991 Samurai, 5-Speed, EFI, Soft-Top ( :| sold)
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Ronzuki
Posts: 2382
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:33 pm
Location: Lancaster County, PA

Just noticed the mess in here...sorry to bugger up your thread WESHOOT. Mods can delete all this business or move it somewhere else.
Ron

2010 Kizashi GTS, CVT, iAWD (3/10 build date)
2011 SX4 Premium Hatch, CVT, iAWD (12/10 build date)
2018 Mazda CX-5 iAWD Touring
2014 Wrangler JKUW (GONE, traded :D :D )
1991 Samurai, 5-Speed, EFI, Soft-Top ( :| sold)
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KuroNekko
Posts: 5172
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:08 pm
Location: California, USA

Ronzuki wrote:Just noticed the mess in here...sorry to bugger up your thread WESHOOT. Mods can delete all this business or move it somewhere else.

I'm actually a mod with admin privileges but given that the discussion started with Weshoot2 talking about a possible replacement car, it seemed he was in the discussion. He also gave us insider input on hybrid sales. I'll let him decide if he wants our discussion moved out of this thread or not, but I personally don't see an issue with it. This forum is very small and posts/content is rather minimal so I think various discussions are generally a good thing. My opinion though.
2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport GTS 6MT (Black)
WESHOOT2
Posts: 1976
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:37 pm
Location: Vermont

I personally enjoy our chats regardless of direction.

Like now: I'm gonna discuss my BrakePerformance.com slotted/drilled brake set.

Cost under $300 delivered, including their semi-metallic pads. That's for all four corners, folks. And so far, I've found big initial bite, enjough whoa to overwhelm the tires, and only the mildest of fade (but to get to that point demands prolonged abuse. Abuse....).
There is no dust, nor unwanted sounds.
I am thoroughly impressed.
So far.....


Last tank Shell premium / regular mix 26.1MPG.








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