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Re: My 2010 Suzi won't start

PostPosted:Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:05 pm
by Ronzuki
It's a haul from Allentown, but give D'Ambrosio's Fiat/Alfa Romeo store in in Frazer a call. The Fiat Frazer, PA store, not the mega sells everything complex in Downingtown. The Frazer guys still had a pipe-line to Suzuki parts last time I was there (over a year ago). Ask for Tony D. in Service. They likely still have the tools since they were the only decent Suzuki service place around in southeastern PA even back when they were still selling Suzukis. The factory trained personnel who know what they're doing, on the other hand, are likely all gone. The Master -tech that was trained and worked on my stuff is def. gone. Also, don't be surprised if they don't ant to deal with your salvage yard parts because they have no idea if they work or not. You may end up spending less (in hourly diag time) if you let them obtain a new part and start from scratch.

KuroNekko...understanding my enormous dislike with the over-use of all this ridiculous automotive tech now after reading this poor guy's problems? Expense, aggravation, hassle, frustration...who needs this?

Re: My 2010 Suzi won't start

PostPosted:Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:15 am
by fyrbry25
OK here is an update, and first off thank you for those that read my lengthy post and commented.

So after typing out the post yesterday I went to the dealer that had my car and found out that the current setup runs, and starts consistently. I immediately asked what they did and how that was possible, they aren't sure. So they put the used steering lock on and it wouldnt talk to the keyfob, they we got the keyfob and then entry unit and they wouldnt talk to the ECM (or whatever the cars brain is called). So then they left the used steering lock on the car so they didnt have to remove the steering column again charge me more labor. The orig steering lock is hooked up electronically and dangling under the dash, and I can see the pin go in when i push the start button and it starts fine and continues to run. So I have a running car again, not so orthodox, but i am so happy to have it back after a month, and they gave me a break only $430.00, all labor. Again, I dont know why it works, and I am not sure what solved the problem, but i am just sharing what I went through hoping that it helps someone here. In retrospect I should have removed the steering unit myself and left it hooked up electronically, but not mechanically and see if that fixed the issue....I plan to zip tie the orig unit up under the dash somewhere and just drive it like that til something else happens. :drive:



Re: My 2010 Suzi won't start
#46592 by fyrbry25
Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:04 pm
I have a 2010 SE and I have not been able to drive it in a month. I took it to an ex-dealer and was told that the steering wheel lock mechanism was faulty. I was then told that it would be 5 weeks until the part was shipped from Japan to PA in the United States and cost just under $300 part only. I decided to try another method, I found a salvage yard that had a donor vehicle on the PA/Ohio border that was willing to pull parts and send them to me to replaced mine in a weeks time instead. Well the entire steering column was pulled from the junked car and shipped to my for 170.00 and I ordered the breakway bolts with a lead time of 1.5 weeks. Well i took the steering lock off the junked steering column by using a cold chisel on the non removable bolts, then took the functional part up to the dealer with the new and old bolts for comparison. Two days later go the call that new part installed, but wont work with my existing key, they are "mismatched" and I need to try to find/acquire the key that was married to the replacement steering lock and i should get the keyless entry module (black box) that goes with it. Another week goes by and those two items show up and i take them to the dealer. They install the matching keyless entry module and use the junked car keyfob and the car starts. they move it 30' and it shuts down and gives them an ECM/ECU car brain doesnt match code. I am now trying to figure out my next step, can we just put the old lock mech back on after we grind down the pin so it doesnt engage? Do i purchase the other brain from the donor car and hope that is all i need and that it doesnt then check with another piece of electronics and shut down bec i need that part to from the donor? Or maybe it runs but the doors dont open or worse....I am also figuring that buying a "NEW" steering wheel lock would work because it would be blank electronically and learn the codes without have to be flashed or programmed.
Not sure what to do, but wanted to share my experiences so far.....I will let you all know what ends up being the ultimate solution or that I gave up and let it at the dealership for all of eternity....

thank you for taking the time to read this and i welcome any and all thoughts and opinions, other than "you should have done this..." I want solutions" not what i did wrong, bec i clearly didnt solve the problem at this point, but i still love the car, just wish i could drive it.

OH yeah, the biggest issue is that the dealer can not (doesnt have tools anymore) to code or reprogram keys/fob/ or flash the cars, so if anyone in PA knows of dealer that can still do so please let me know


Bryan Bassett
Allentown Pa

Re: My 2010 Suzi won't start

PostPosted:Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:26 am
by KuroNekko
Ronzuki wrote:KuroNekko...understanding my enormous dislike with the over-use of all this ridiculous automotive tech now after reading this poor guy's problems? Expense, aggravation, hassle, frustration...who needs this?


Sure, it can be detrimental. However, let's not negate some factors here. It's really not the implementation of technology that's the problem. It's more that this specific part is known to be faulty in some specific vehicles. This is evident given this sort of electronic steering wheel lock mechanism isn't unique to the Kizashi by any means. It's on any modern car these days but this problem is only prevalent with certain vehicles. While some are treating this issue like some mystery plaguing the Kizashi, I've stated a while back that it's a well documented issue with Nissans and Infinitis. I've also stated that Nissan and Suzuki share many OEMs on components and their steering wheel lock mechanism very likely comes from the same manufacturer, much like their fobs. The problem has been more thoroughly discussed on Nissan forums given there are way more Nissans than Suzukis. In essence, it's very likely due to a manufacturing problem with the steering wheel locking mechanism made by the OEM for Nissan and Suzuki for this component.

Given the complex nature of remote fobs for operating a vehicle, this sort of issue does indeed make it more of a headache to diagnose and fix. That being said, it's not like steering wheel locks never caused problems before. My old 1995 Impreza's steering wheel used to lock-up on me a number of times and that was a mechanical system. I'd have to jiggle the steering wheel while turning the key just right to get things to work properly. It once stranded me for a while. It got worse as the key inevitably whittled down from metal on metal insertion on the lock cylinders in both the doors and the ignition.

Let's also not negate why these systems exist in the first place: they prevent theft. They drastically reduced the theft of vehicles since their implementation and impeded theft from simple "hotwiring". Combined with newer technologies like microchip keys and key fobs, they made modern vehicles nearly impossible to steal without specialized tools and advanced knowledge. This is why the most stolen vehicles even today are 90's models that don't have the technology preventing easy methods of theft. Some of these models are so easy to steal that all it takes is a screwdriver in the ignition. And trust me, even teenagers without a license know this as I've investigated these sorts of cases before. ;)

So, yes, there are issues with newer technologies and their flaws. However, to absolutely negate the other problems they've alleviated is greatly flawed. While the steering wheel lock issue does sound like a headache, I'd much rather deal with the possibility of this than to revert back to older technology which was far less secure and literally let untrained teenagers steal cars with little effort. Heck, I like the technology in the Kizashi simply because it makes locking your keys in the car nearly impossible, protecting you from yourself!

Re: My 2010 Suzi won't start

PostPosted:Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:13 am
by Woodie
Woodie wrote:We're getting competing stories about this steering wheel lock unit. Some say just put it in, there's no matching or programming needed. Others are saying that it's mated to the car/fob.

fyrbry25 wrote:I am also figuring that buying a "NEW" steering wheel lock would work because it would be blank electronically and learn the codes without have to be flashed or programmed.

This may be the issue. A new one is blank, yours was already mated to another car.

Re: My 2010 Suzi won't start

PostPosted:Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:43 pm
by Ronzuki
To the OP, It's great you can finally start your car again. It's not surprising that it was made to function in a half-azzed manner and even less surprising that no one understands the how or why of it. All I'll say about that is that until all of this non-sense comes to a halt, get used to it. Get used to forking out many hundreds of dollars at a shot for dealer labor to hope-n-poke at the tech when it fails.

I've easily swapped many ignition switches in my time. Didn't require a dealer, a computer, used parts, other new parts besides the switch or swapping anything else other than the switches. More tech, more headaches. So if this has been a "known Issue", like so many other things, then why hasn't it been permanently resolved. Ah yes, moving on to the next thing at the speed of light w/o slowing down and correctly resolving existing known problems.

KuroNekko wrote:Let's also not negate why these systems exist in the first place: they prevent theft. They drastically reduced the theft of vehicles since their implementation and impeded theft from simple "hotwiring". Combined with newer technologies like microchip keys and key fobs, they made modern vehicles nearly impossible to steal without specialized tools and advanced knowledge. This is why the most stolen vehicles even today are 90's models that don't have the technology preventing easy methods of theft. Some of these models are so easy to steal that all it takes is a screwdriver in the ignition. And trust me, even teenagers without a license know this as I've investigated these sorts of cases before. ;)


As demonstrated in this thread, all this jazz also makes it nearly impossible for anyone to DIAGNOSE and properly REPAIR the damn car as well.

Anyway, so much for your theory:

http://lancasteronline.com/news/local/v ... 55389.html

Thieves in some other countries would likely lose a hand when caught and tried. No expensive, aggravating (to me) tech involved there, however, real consequences to them for their actions. You sir keep missing the point regarding the falsity that the overuse of technology will somehow magically resolve all of our societal problems.

So, how much did the OP spend to not-so-completely resolve this issue? Time? Money? Mind you, not fix and return to normal, simply resolve to the point he could use his car again for its designed and intended purpose. And if I'm not mistaking, his car is still more vulnerable to theft then as well, correct?

Re: My 2010 Suzi won't start

PostPosted:Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:32 pm
by KuroNekko
Ronzuki wrote:As demonstrated in this thread, all this jazz also makes it nearly impossible for anyone to DIAGNOSE and properly REPAIR the damn car as well.


If you go to a dealership with no experience in this matter, yes. But like I've said, this problem isn't just with Kizashis. It's seen with Nissans given they likely used the same parts. I've seen the matter discussed at length in Nissan forums like I mentioned a while ago. In fact, I bet a Nissan dealership would be much better suited to resolve the issue than other places, even some former Suzuki dealers. After all, the issue likely stems from a design/build flaw and the problems come about with age. It can't be just coincidence that more Kizashis are now exhibiting this problem. While I agree that it's aggravating, the whole diagnostic and repair shit show Kizashi owners are experiencing is more likely due to certain service locations (including former Suzuki dealerships) not having much experience with the issue yet rather than the technology itself. The proof is in the varying stories of how this problem is being resolved by different people. It's obvious many mechanics are playing trial-and-error instead of knowing exactly what to do.

Ronzuki wrote:Anyway, so much for your theory:

http://lancasteronline.com/news/local/v ... 55389.html


Did you read the article? It clearly states that the thieves took the keys from the dealership to steal the cars. This isn't a flaw with technology safeguarding a vehicle from theft but more an issue with the management of the business itself if keys to cars can go missing.

Ronzuki wrote:Thieves in some other countries would likely lose a hand when caught and tried. No expensive, aggravating (to me) tech involved there, however, real consequences to them for their actions. You sir keep missing the point regarding the falsity that the overuse of technology will somehow magically resolve all of our societal problems.


I never stated technology would solve all problems but I also don't have a one-track mind with a vendetta against technology. I don't refuse to see their benefits even if they have some flaws. I see how newer technology has helped with issues more common in the past. It's just incontrovertible that thefts of vehicles have greatly diminished due to advanced technology safeguarding vehicles. In the past, it was much easier for anyone to steal a vehicle without the key. Cars used to disappear from driveways all the time. Now, it's much much harder and most vehicle thefts involve the key being left in the car or also stolen... as your article exemplified.

Ronzuki wrote:So, how much did the OP spend to not-so-completely resolve this issue? Time? Money? Mind you, not fix and return to normal, simply resolve to the point he could use his car again for its designed and intended purpose. And if I'm not mistaking, his car is still more vulnerable to theft then as well, correct?


I am sympathetic to the OP and anyone dealing with this issue. I agree it's aggravating and it's very possible I'll have to deal with it sooner or later. However, the matter with diagnosing and repairing this issue isn't so much due to the technology at play here. It's a problem with the service location and the mechanics. They appear to not have much experience or aren't competent with the issue. I'd take my car to a place where they are more likely familiar with the problem. If an Authorized Suzuki Service location isn't competent, I'd probably seek a Nissan dealer, especially since most Kizashis are now out of warranty anyway and Nissan dealers probably have much more experience with this particular issue.
Again, I don't see this diagnosis/repair problem being a fault of the technology as much as inexperience. It could easily have been with another component that mechanics simply aren't experienced with given this is a rare car with an orphan status with a skeletal support network.

Re: My 2010 Suzi won't start

PostPosted:Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:51 am
by Ronzuki
First, I'm not busting on the Kizashi's tech alone. The Kizashi is relatively low tech. No screen in my dash for starters. All 'modern' cars that employ too much tech, and the coming autonomous nightmare, are what I rail against. I could care less what brand, model or year. The problem I have is everything has too much useless, to me, tech leaving no choice for those of us that simply don't want it..

Secondly, yes, of course I read the stolen hot-rods article. I saw it on the news and then read about it in the newspaper. I laughed as I thought about all the tech in place to 'protect' those vehicles. Investigate away...it's all after the fact. Stolen is stolen, doesn't matter how. The over-priced tech didn't stop it from happening...in the car or the building. The perps obviously knew they couldn't jam your screwdriver in the ignition and start it so they stole the 'keys'. Better for them anyway, no damage to their prizes. Moreover they likely went shopping on the internet (more over-used tech) beforehand. Those vehicles are either already in pieces or no longer in the country. Based on the models I'd say the later. Insurance will pay for the stolen cars, just as it would have without all the tech. The bad guys always figure a way to get what they want one way or the other. Pay higher premiums for low-tech vehicles or pay ridiculous prices for the car w/ all its tech glory, and the crazy repairs w/ accompanying aggravation because of the black-box tech no one understands so the insurance companies can make more profit. I'll take the far less aggravating low-tech nearly extinct option.

Nearly all of your rebuttals here and elsewhere merely add credence that these types of "can't start my car" issues will only get worse as time goes on with more useless tech, not better. You use phrases such as 'Not much experience'...competency...rare...these are the problems I'm concerned about. Expensive problems as we've seen here. Nearly my entire life in automation, experiencing "progress", has shown this to be true. My one-track mind is not so one-tracked...it has lived and learned. I've designed, built, tested, installed and commissioned hard-wired relay control panels before you were likely born.

Automobiles are really in their infancy stage in this regard. We starting to see the real-world automation issues creeping in here already. Can you see it? Simply read this thread. I was an uber-geek with automation. Some 15 years ago, the juice started to really not be worth the squeeze. The hardware and software changes now are so fast, and at times radical, that you can barely finish a single project before the tech has moved on and you find yourself struggling w/ mixed-match hardware, firmware and software. Time consuming 'hope-n-poke' ensues. Time costs real money, as the OP has informed us. Money the tech forces consumers to fork over to someone to try and solve issues like this one. It's the first time those guys have seen this particular 'thing', and very likely the last.

Known issues is a BS excuse used by all. When called on the carpet about any given problem, the canned standard reply out of the customer service binder is 'that's a known issue and we're working on it'. That means deal with it anyway you can, we've moved on. Profits and all ya know. They (industry or automotive, doesn't matter) will never resolve many of their 'known issues' as the issues are already entrenched, too complex and too expensive to go back and resolve. If it doesn't involve the holy-grail, a safety aspect they can be sued over, good luck Charlie.

The OP couldn't start his 7-8 year old car. Is he going to crash because of the steering wheel won't unlock and the car won't start? Nope. Mr. automaker doesn't care, move on as they have and buy another new car. Or, as in this case, pay a bunch of money and not have a complete fix, take your pick.

This is the biggest problem anyone working on these wonderfully futuristic machines will experience. Mechanics/techs won't be able to get used to working on anything before it changes. No different in industry, experience again, and not my one-tracked mind, proves that point.

Re: My 2010 Suzi won't start

PostPosted:Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:42 am
by renegaderen89
Unfortunately i am now a member of this steering lock problem club. One guy early on in this thread mentioned replacing the battery (or that a battery at the end of its life could make this problem worse...) has anyone here found a brand new battery even helps at all? I saw new batteries in key fobs seem to help a bit. For now i resolve this problem with turning my wheel 90 degrees to the left...opening the door for the reset...then it starts..i am 2 for 2 on this new theory.

Re: My 2010 Suzi won't start

PostPosted:Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:07 am
by IA_Kizashi
renegaderen89 wrote:Unfortunately i am now a member of this steering lock problem club. One guy early on in this thread mentioned replacing the battery (or that a battery at the end of its life could make this problem worse...) has anyone here found a brand new battery even helps at all? I saw new batteries in key fobs seem to help a bit. For now i resolve this problem with turning my wheel 90 degrees to the left...opening the door for the reset...then it starts..i am 2 for 2 on this new theory.

That will probably work for awhile but the issue will get progressively worse, especially when it is cold out.

Re: My 2010 Suzi won't start

PostPosted:Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:53 am
by Woodie
I think any perceived benefit from new batteries is a placebo effect. The key fob battery certainly has nothing to do with it. The steering lock motor is like a slot car motor, if the main battery has the power to turn the starter motor twelve hours after the car is turned off, then it can easily spin that slot car motor a second or two after being turned off.

The problem here is either a mechanical one, that the lock armature sticks in the bore due to bad grease or simple stiction, or the switches that signal to the computer that the locking has been accomplished are failing. I suspect it's the former because when it happens on my car, the steering wheel is most definitely not locked. Turning it off and opening the door has worked 100% so far (at least it did right up until I wrote that, LOL). I've tried to wiggle the wheel after opening the door to see if I can catch it in the act, but have had no luck remembering to do this more than about one time out of five. Thirty years of driving Suzukis has left me with an expectation that things are going to work.