2012 Kizashi SE - Coolant / heating problem

[Carl-in-NH]

Symptoms:

Wife tells me after coming back from an 90+ mile round trip at beginning of Sept 2014 that the car seems hot and air conditioning stopped working. Strong smell of antifreeze.

I pop the hood and sure enough, antifreeze splashes everywhere in the engine bay, and coolant reservoir seems empty.

Reservoir cap is gone, missing, disappeared.

No idea how that happened -- I have not been under the hood all year, and wifey certainly never touches the car under the hood.

I go to Suzuki (in my own car) to get their recommended coolant: "Powerline", which I have never heard of -- Ethylene glycol, potassium, and borax (?). Mix 50/50, add it, and drive the Kizashi for about 10 days inlcduing 80+ mile commutes, notice no problem, engine does not seem rough, and coolant level seems to be holding. Reservoir cap is replaced with a new one ordered through Suzuki.

Give it back to the wife, and she drives it.

Now, at end of Sept, same scenario, only worse: wife goes on 80+ mile round trip, I get a call: "I am in the supermarket parking lot, car does not start, it was really hot and the air conditioning stopped working during the drive"

Pick her up, nurse the car the remaining few miles back home (one stop to let the engine cool down), and under the hood, same deal: coolant everywhere, reservoir cap is off (found down bottom on the splash shield, so I did not need to order another one). Wife says the engine temp gauge read hot, then suddenly read cool.

This is bad. That means the coolant ran out.

(continued)

[Carl-in-NH]

So, today, I got into the cooling system to see what might be contirbuting. Thermostat ? Water pump ?

Troubleshooting the thermostat:

The thermostat is down in the lower passenger side of the engine bay.

Easiest way for me was to remove air scoop (3 bolts to loosen the front fascia plastic trim, then 2 fasteners under that), air box (3 bolts, take off the intake hoses and disconnect the MAF), and reservoir (2 bolts, disconnect bleed hose from radiator cap)

To get at the thermostat housing, remove the outlet coolant hose (used gas pipe wrench to squeeze and move the hose clamps. The painful part was finding the right angle to get at the hose clamp. The hose came off easily after that ). Remaining coolant will dump out from there.

Thermostat housing is held on by 3 10 mm bolts. There is a flange in the way of one of the thermostat housing bolts, so best to get that out of the way (1 13 mm bolt).

Once the thermostat was out, tested it by heating it in a pot of water on the stove , with a thermometer in the water.

Once the water got up to 180 ~ 190 degrees, the thermostat opened.

So, thermostat is apparently not the problem.

Troubleshooting the water pump:

Left everything above still removed/disconnected, except for the thermostat housing: that is back in place and snugged up, and outlet hose back in place.

Disconnect the radiator inlet hose from the driver side of the engine.

Charged the system by pouring water into the open end of the radiator inlet hose.

Started the car and ran for a couple of minutes. Witnessed the water coming out from where the radiator inlet hose was previously attached.

So, water pump apparently not the problem.

Other troubleshooting:

With the system charged with water and the inlet and outlet hoses connected, but the small bleed hose from the radiator cap to the reservoir disconnected, engine off: squeezed the inlet hose to see if water came out the bleed valve from the side of the radiator cap. It did. I think the radiator cap is supposed to withstand pressure buildup until about 15 psi, so this seems to be a problem.

Looking into the radiator neck, there is a throat that the radiator cap seats on. All is made of plastic, and it seems that the bottom of the radiator cap is supposed to seal against that. However, the plastic on the rim of the throat seemed to be damaged: there are numerous small gouges around the rim.

Tried polishing the rough rim edges down with a round scotch brite pad stuck on the end of a drill mandrel so the bottom of the radiator cap would seal properly, but although it did smooth things out, I could still force water out the bleed port by squeezing the radiator inlet hose.

Not giving up on that yet (will continue trying to smooth the radiator throat in the next few days), but kind of at a loss regarding root cause here.

Apparently not thermostat, and not water pump.

Could be because the radiator cap is not properly acting as a pressure valve, but, even if that is the case: would this really cause the pressure to build up enough to make the reservoir cap blow off ? (the plastic reservoir tank has a small pressure relief hole at top) And, what is the root cause of the radiator cap problem ?

[KuroNekko]

Are you using the Super Long Life coolant that is blue in color?

Also, you wrote that the car would not start when hot. Was it showing a Check Engine Light? If so, have it read. It could reveal a sensor failure that could possibly be the cause of the issue.

To state the obvious, it sounds like you are having a boil-over. The coolant is getting too hot, boiling, and going into the overflow in a boiling rage. The pressure is then blowing off the reservoir cap which is why it's missing or found on the splash guard and the coolant is everywhere (and why your wife smells it).

Check the radiator cap to make sure it is on properly and is tight. Look around the cap carefully for signs of leaks. A leak in the pressurized cap will lower the boiling temperature of the coolant and can cause problems like this. You can get it pressure-checked by a mechanic. If it fails, it needs to be replaced.

If the cap is fine, the next thing I would look into is the thermostat. If it's faulty, it will not circulate the coolant adequately hence the coolant will get hot and boil faster than it should. It may also explain why the coolant temp gauge was running hot and then suddenly read cool. This could reflect the faulty thermostat suddenly opening and allowing the coolant to circulate. However, it's hard to say for certain.

What's the mileage of the car? Is it still under warranty?

I also want to add that it's best to blast the heater at full heat to relieve some of the engine/coolant heat, especially while limping home.

[KuroNekko]

Okay, I wrote my previous reply before your second post. It sounds like the radiator cap may be the problem. If it's not properly sealing, then it will offset the cooling system pressure and cause the boiling temp to lower therefore, you will have this boil-over issue that properly-sealing radiator caps would prevent.

As for why the neck is damaged: I'm thinking it was probably caused by a careless mechanic who checked the radiator coolant level. Where do you guys get service like oil changes?

[Carl-in-NH]

KuroNekko, thanks for the quick response.

Car has 52k miles.

Wife reported a CEL. If it is the same one I read today, it was a P0117 (coolant temp low input -- she reported a sudden low reading after a high temp reading. To me, this is just confirming that the coolant ran out -- ugh)

I blasted the heat on the second leg of the limp home; temp gauge stayed about middle, so that certainly helped. (BTW, I dumped about 1/2 gallon of distilled water in it, bought at the supermarket, before limping home)

Thermostat and water pump are APPARENTLY not the problem (see the troubleshooting details I provided in my second part), so unless it is a really intermittent problem with those, I think I can rule those out, so I am going to focus elsewhere.

The radiator cap seems to be a problem, perhaps THE problem, as it does not seem to be seating properly. I will order a new one on Monday. I am going to continue to try to clean up the rough edges of the throat to get the cap to seat properly, but if unable, I may need to buy a new radiator as that throat seems to be molded together with the radiator.

Even if I bought a new cap and possibly even a new radiator, I still do not know the root cause, and can not be sure I resolved something. Grrr.

[Carl-in-NH]

All service is done by the (former) Suzuki dealer (still doing business, as Suzuki was not their only line).

No reason to suspect their work, but I am wondering about the coolant recommendation they gave me. ("Powerline". BTW, the "Powerline" is green, not blue.)

I am going to find a good coolant replacement, as I am having trouble even finding this "Powerline" stuff on line. I hope that the Suzuki Super Long Life Coolant is readily available.

[KuroNekko]

The OE fill is the Super Blue coolant that has an original fill life of 75,000 miles or so. If I were you, I'd find a Suzuki dealer that sells this. I think using the green stuff is fine once you flush the system of the old, but it will not offer the longevity of the blue formula. I think the owner's manual has more info on this. There are also threads on this topic of coolants if you search this forum.

Given your descriptions, it seems like the cap is at fault. I think the best approach is to repair/replace the radiator neck/cap and then take it from there.

Best of luck.

[murcod]

Agreed, the cap not holding pressure would cause all the problems you've had. That little breather hole in the over flow reservoir wouldn't be enough release the pressure from the boiling coolant.

Are both the rubber seals on the cap okay? I've replace the OEM cap once on my XL-7 because the rubber was starting to crack and the replacement OEM cap is starting to do the same again! Twice in a 10yr old vehicle- time for an aftermarket radiator cap.

Hopefully you haven't done any damage to the engine?

PS: don't trust even dealers to sell you the correct coolant.....

[Carl-in-NH]

The rubber seals on the radiator cap seem to be okay, but once I get the replacement, I will have a better point of comparison.

I am concerned that I have an engine issue, and I will try to determine what I can do about that. Head only ? Full engine replacement ?

[murcod]

See how it drives once it's fixed. You can get radiator pressure testers (you literally pump pressure into the system via an adaptor that fits where the cap goes) and I think you can also test the caps with them too.