TPMS nightmare

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Ronzuki
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KuroNekko wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:57 pm OK, so what happens when a driver with ignorantly low pressure has a blowout and veers directly into the opposing lane that you and your family are traveling in?
You see, traffic safety is hardly about that one subject with the problematic vehicle. It can and largely does, affect others on the road. The last thing I want is to be a victim of someone else's ignorance. I'm sure you feel the same.

As for surviving the first 100 years of automotive history, eh, it's arguable. Cars are so much safer now than ever and more people are surviving accidents that were sure fatalities decades before due to advanced automotive technology and regulation. The relationship between advancing automotive technology and regulation is incontrovertibly the reason for greater safety as it's evident drivers are less involved in driving than ever. The very technology we love to hate is keeping us all safer whether we want to admit it or not. This is not opinion but fact supported by just about any research on the topic. It's actually common sense: cars are improving but drivers are not. There is literally no system or implementation that has significantly improved drivers themselves in America. The auto industry and lawmakers know this. Hence, it's technology and litigation that has kept people safer on the road.

The last point is the one I keep asking without any satisfying or realistic answers: what is the alternative to technology and regulation such as TPMS? You really want to trust the millions of people you don't know to do the right thing all the time to keep themselves and, more importantly, you safe on the road? Really? How can one even realistically account for and ensure that? We can't even get many people to drive sober so asking people to make sure their cars are in proper and safe order as well as they themselves driving properly and safely is as realistic as having a pet unicorn that shits gold. Furthermore, people are more distracted than ever with cellphones and screens and then consider that there are more of them than ever due to population growth.

So yeah, TPMS is annoying but I think getting in a wreck with someone whose car didn't warn them of dangerously low pressure they were oblivious to is a lot more annoying.

This has all been discussed to death elsewhere (the incessant over-use of over-priced tech in the name of safety). Woodie's first post merely points out the pipe-dreaminess of it all. I believe a photo of a TPMS equipped vehicle was posted some time ago w/ tires running on the belts. What tech are we going to whip up to solve that man-made problem ? Just because my belief doesn't align with your belief on the over use of tech doesn't mean it wasn't answered. Realistic, in your opinion, or not, is irrelevant. Drunk drivers, cellphones, now legalized recreational pot added to the mix...all man-made problems that no amount of tech will solve. I chose not to desire the expensive man-made so-called solutions to man-made problems. I have a far cheaper and permanent solution to problems such as drunk drivers , addicted cell-phone users ,and the like when they occur (which doesn't involve lawyers, politicians, or more tech) which I'm very certain would get results and also very certain that you will not agree with, nor find realistic. Again, irrelevant. The solution's concept begins with a single, simple, and very dead as hell notion: accountability.
Ron

2010 Kizashi GTS, CVT, iAWD (3/10 build date)
2011 SX4 Premium Hatch, CVT, iAWD (12/10 build date)
2018 Mazda CX-5 iAWD Touring
2014 Wrangler JKUW (GONE, traded :D :D )
1991 Samurai, 5-Speed, EFI, Soft-Top ( :| sold)
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KuroNekko
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Again, no realistic alternatives. There is a lot of discussion about the issue (tire pressure-related accidents), the problems with the technology and legislation addressing the issue (TPMS), but no actual or feasible alternative solutions. Seriously, what is the alternative to millions of people driving with ignorantly low tire pressure on public roads with many others on the road with them? Honestly, I can't think of anything better and more effective than TPMS. Let me know if you actually do.

As for the notion that just a small number of people died due to low tire pressure-related accidents, that's misleading. There were a small number of documented deaths related to Ford Explorers and Firestone tires. We can all agree that driving with constantly underinflated tires on any vehicle can be dangerous. It's just worse on certain vehicles with certain tires like the Explorer on Firestones. I agree with Ronzuki though that if properly inflated, the vehicle and tires were fine. But the problem was that many were driving on low tire pressure on all vehicles and even before the Explorer/Firestone scandal, people were involved in accidents and fatalities stemming from low tire pressure. It just wasn't sensationalized until the Explorer/Firestone matter. Since the implementation of TPMS, it's quite evident this risk factor has been alleviated by alerting people of their low tire pressure that could put them or others at risk. It's a system that, despite annoying the shit out of us, works for its intended purpose.

While there is certainly a point to a position that cars are getting more and more expensive due to technology and safety features that not all consumers want or need, the market follows consumer trends and more safety tech is apparently what most consumers want. As we know, manual transmissions are fading out largely because people don't buy them. What's now a new factor in this trend is that companies are phasing them out also because they aren't compatible with the latest safety tech. For example, Subaru is discontinuing the manual transmission for all models except for the WRX, STI, and BRZ (their performance models) so they can put their EyeSight automated braking system standard on more models. The Crosstrek and Impreza are losing their manuals for this reason. It's frustrating for those like me but when consumers aren't buying the cars with manuals and are rather buying the models with more tech, what is a company to do? It's just reality that models with more tech are selling better in America. While not all of us want this stuff, it's not absurd to think that many drivers want the technology to keep them and their loved ones safer because automobile deaths are a top 5 cause of death in America. All things considered, TPMS is a rudimentary safety tech compared to the norm now. Those who want to resist will have to buy old cars or motorcycles and "die like real men". :lol:
2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport GTS 6MT (Black)
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Woodie
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Again a Pollyanna approach to how wonderful this "safety" system is. I believe that the people who drive around oblivious to a dangerously low tire are the exact same people who drive around with the TPMS warnings flashing in their face.

You can't fix stupid.
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KuroNekko
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Woodie wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:18 pm Again a Pollyanna approach to how wonderful this "safety" system is. I believe that the people who drive around oblivious to a dangerously low tire are the exact same people who drive around with the TPMS warnings flashing in their face.

You can't fix stupid.
Maybe but the general driving public would take note of the TPMS warning and check air in their tires that they otherwise would not. That's the whole point of the system. Yes, car enthusiasts and meticulous people don't need technology telling them to check/put air in their tires but these people are a small minority. Lousy people will ignore such a warning out of ignorance or lack of concern but these people are also a small minority. The vast majority of drivers are in between and benefit from TPMS. This is the 90% I keep talking about who benefit from the system. It's a system that simply works and will never go away.

Again, I appreciate you dealing with the issues related to programming the new sensors and discussing the details here. I have no doubt it was a frustrating ordeal in which "experts" were rather ignorant but you figured it out. It's also an issue that most drivers would deal with about once every ten years so realistically, once in a particular vehicle's service lifespan.
2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport GTS 6MT (Black)
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Ronzuki
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Woodie wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:18 pm Again a Pollyanna approach to how wonderful this "safety" system is. I believe that the people who drive around oblivious to a dangerously low tire are the exact same people who drive around with the TPMS warnings flashing in their face.

You can't fix stupid.
Ding! Ding Ding!
Ron

2010 Kizashi GTS, CVT, iAWD (3/10 build date)
2011 SX4 Premium Hatch, CVT, iAWD (12/10 build date)
2018 Mazda CX-5 iAWD Touring
2014 Wrangler JKUW (GONE, traded :D :D )
1991 Samurai, 5-Speed, EFI, Soft-Top ( :| sold)
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Ronzuki
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KuroNekko wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:57 pm Again, no realistic alternatives.
Yeah, no sh|t. And I don't consider the description of the reality of this particular techno-marvel solution to checking air in tires in the first post of this thread realistic, at all, either.
Accountability is worse than a frigging four letter world shouted in church on Easter Sunday. in fact our wonderful education systems (empowered and guided by guess who?) do everything in their power to promote the exact opposite of accountability. The word is rarely spoken, hardly ever taught, and most certiainly never enforced . Might as well remove it from the dictionary. A school is the epitome of little to no accountability from the top down. The actions speak volumes.

We've had this useless back and forth regarding these high tech solutions to mankind's self-inflicted stupidity before. More technology, on top of technology, to fix or subvert the technology, deployed to fix stupid. At great expense. Well dude, my well for paying for all of this sh|t has done gone bone dry right along side of my tolerance level of it being shoved down my throat every time I turn around.

However, as I said, I have a very realistic solution in mind. If you read what I wrote: "The solution's concept begins with a single, simple, and very dead as hell notion: accountability." I do sincerely believe you would certainly not approve of how the solution's concept ends for offenders. It doesn't involve modern TPMS technology, auto pilot, cameras, or anything else of the sort. It's a concept that once employed everyone thoroughly understands when word spreads, and, in short order, would greatly reduce so-called accidents (distracted driving, drunk driving, being lazy and irresponsible in general, etc.).

What ever happened to the mantra that driving is a privilege, not a right?

(3) restored little 1978 Broncos all went for 80-100k each on Barrett Jackson over the weekend,. No power anything. Brand new, zero modern tech. So ya gotta be pretty damn wealthy to die like a real man as well. There goes that alternative.
Ron

2010 Kizashi GTS, CVT, iAWD (3/10 build date)
2011 SX4 Premium Hatch, CVT, iAWD (12/10 build date)
2018 Mazda CX-5 iAWD Touring
2014 Wrangler JKUW (GONE, traded :D :D )
1991 Samurai, 5-Speed, EFI, Soft-Top ( :| sold)
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KuroNekko
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You realize you are basically conceding that TPMS is the only real solution, right? I mean TPMS sounds like quite a reasonable alternative to turning our society into North Korea or a place clogged with breakdowns and accidents by doing jack shit. Again, this is what I keep saying. There are no real other solutions. I agree with you that more people need to accept personal accountability but how can that be implemented and enforced? People can't even be trusted to keep themselves safer by using seatbelts or driving sober despite criminal prosecution and steep fines. Relying on personal accountability alone is a utopian pipedream and our education system has nothing to do with it. It's not even political.

The way I see it is that TMPS is an annoying system that was created for the benefit of most. Not all of us need it or want it but problems with ignorantly low tire pressure was/is common and dangerous enough for lawmakers and the auto industry to take notice and act. There is no doubt some of us have suffered from the system as Woodie's experience exemplified. Others have complained about the system in syncing a second set of tires with different sensors for winter tires. No doubt it's a headache but in the grand scheme of things, it serves a societal benefit for most of the driving population and I'm sure data on accident statistics would support this.

It appears the industry has moved on from things like tire pressure monitoring and stability control and is now focused on automated systems such as lane assist and automated braking. Do we need such things? I'd like to think no but again, people simply can't be trusted to pay attention despite the fines, lawsuits, insurance deductibles, and risk of injury or death to self and others. I do my best to focus on the road when I drive and prefer manual transmission vehicles for this purpose. Screens in cars aren't very appealing to me because I pay attention to things through the windshield, not on a screen in the dash. However, I certainly don't want to be hit by someone distracted by their phone. If automated systems are going to keep me safer from the idiots staring at their screens, what really am I supposed to do? I agree with you that it shouldn't come to this and trusting technology is not the way it should be but holy #$*&, people are far from responsible in reality. The technology is undeniably improving and people are not. This is just an incontrovertible fact. I also don't live in rural areas where I can avoid traffic and many other drivers. When I'm a passenger in a car, I habitually watch other drivers and it's frightening how many people drive distracted by their phones. I also ride a motorcycle and need people (or their cars) to pay attention. Both my Kizashi and V-Strom have very bright LED DRLs to gain more attention. If someone is trying to change lanes without checking their blind spot and their car resists the lane change because it detected me, I'm thankful for that technology. It shouldn't come to trusting technology over people, but I only favor realistic solutions as I live in reality.
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Ronzuki
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Twist it anyway you like. Technology, will, not, save , us, from, ourselves. The great delusion.

The simplest and cheapest solution is ditch the TPMS and let the cards fall where they may. Oh the horror. THEN hold the offending, inconsiderate, negligible moron(s) (those people that can't be trusted as you say) accountable. Accountable in very unpleasant, embarrassing, uncomfortable, public fashion while dispensing a tad bit more than a simple fine behind closed doors accompanied by a slap on the wrist, for their stupidity and laziness. And it sure as hell doesn't involve lawyers. I'll leave it to your imagination to figure out what that actually means. Simple, clear, and real enough for you?

Read the first post, again,. That, my friend, is NOT technology improving. That, is an epic fail cluster-fluck (technical term which its use is growing in exponential fashion).
Ron

2010 Kizashi GTS, CVT, iAWD (3/10 build date)
2011 SX4 Premium Hatch, CVT, iAWD (12/10 build date)
2018 Mazda CX-5 iAWD Touring
2014 Wrangler JKUW (GONE, traded :D :D )
1991 Samurai, 5-Speed, EFI, Soft-Top ( :| sold)
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Woodie
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KuroNekko wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:00 pmThe way I see it is that TMPS is an annoying system that was created for the benefit of most. Not all of us need it or want it but problems with ignorantly low tire pressure was/is common and dangerous enough for lawmakers and the auto industry to take notice and act. There is no doubt some of us have suffered from the system as Woodie's experience exemplified. Others have complained about the system in syncing a second set of tires with different sensors for winter tires. No doubt it's a headache but in the grand scheme of things, it serves a societal benefit for most of the driving population and I'm sure data on accident statistics would support this.
"The way you see it" is a wild over reaction, the benefit is minuscule but the cost and inconvenience is massive. We could save 40,000 lives per year if cars were incapable of going over 30 mph, vehicular death would be almost unheard of, but the economy would grind to a halt. Outlawing motorcycles would save 100 times as many lives as TPMS. My earlier example of forcing manufacturers to armor car roofs in case of asteroid is ludicrous but merely the extreme extrapolation of this thinking. You probably think that TPMS is good and armoring roofs or outlawing motorcycles is too much. I think mandating that manufacturers install seatbelts was good but airbags (and everything since) were too much.

Living life incurs risk, those who wish to be protected from risk at any cost are not really living, they're running scared.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Ben Franklin
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KuroNekko
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Ronzuki wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:48 am The simplest and cheapest solution is ditch the TPMS and let the cards fall where they may. Oh the horror. THEN hold the offending, inconsiderate, negligible moron(s) (those people that can't be trusted as you say) accountable. Accountable in very unpleasant, embarrassing, uncomfortable, public fashion while dispensing a tad bit more than a simple fine behind closed doors accompanied by a slap on the wrist, for their stupidity and laziness. And it sure as hell doesn't involve lawyers. I'll leave it to your imagination to figure out what that actually means. Simple, clear, and real enough for you?
See, again, unrealistic. I keep saying it because it is. The notion of accountability is how our system works with DUIs and it doesn't prevent much of it. Thousands die every year from drunk drivers and many victims are people who were doing nothing wrong.
As for a system that doesn't involve lawyers yet wants to dish out punishment is literally unconstitutional. Don't forget that the Constitution has more than the first two amendments that get all the attention. The majority of the Bill of Rights has to do with a defendant's rights and your proposed "solution" would be unconstitutional. This is why I made the reference to North Korea. Again and again, unrealistic. Also, TPMS sounds wonderful and much more effective in comparison. :mrgreen:

Woodie wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:37 am "The way you see it" is a wild over reaction, the benefit is minuscule but the cost and inconvenience is massive. We could save 40,000 lives per year if cars were incapable of going over 30 mph, vehicular death would be almost unheard of, but the economy would grind to a halt. Outlawing motorcycles would save 100 times as many lives as TPMS. My earlier example of forcing manufacturers to armor car roofs in case of asteroid is ludicrous but merely the extreme extrapolation of this thinking. You probably think that TPMS is good and armoring roofs or outlawing motorcycles is too much. I think mandating that manufacturers install seatbelts was good but airbags (and everything since) were too much.

Living life incurs risk, those who wish to be protected from risk at any cost are not really living, they're running scared.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Ben Franklin
First, TPMS is really not infringing on liberty. It can be annoying but it's certainly not meddling with an "essential liberty". As you pointed out yourself, it doesn't even keep one from driving with underinflated tires.

As for cars not going over 30 MPH, outlawing motorcycles, and asteroids:
Americans travel at rather high speeds on average. Given our vast space, interstate freeway and highway system, and longer commute distances with people living in suburbs, the US is a nation where people travel further and faster than most others. For this reason, USDM vehicles need to meet higher specs for crash testing than many other nations. I can certainly relate to the JDM as I'm familiar with Japan. JDM specs are not up to the standards of the USDM but the roads and highways there are very different than that of the US. One simply cannot easily travel as fast and far there as here. Nearly all highways in Japan are also tolled, reducing costs for citizens who don't use the highway system (most people). This has a lot to do with why vehicles like the Suzuki Samurai in the US were scrutinized and, even when vindicated legally, they lost popularity. People thought they were unsafe at higher speeds and quite frankly, they weren't good at higher speeds. Meanwhile, the direct successor to the Samurai (Jimny) is wildly popular even today in Japan and other nations... that don't need to drive them at American freeway speeds. My point in this is that cars in America travel at higher speeds regularly thus there needs to be more safety implementation to keep accident and fatality rates lower. The whole tire blowout and rollover issue probably didn't relate to Ford Explorers with Firestone tires traveling at 30 MPH or under, right? We obviously need to travel faster than that so safety laws and tech take this into account.

As for motorcycles, they are indeed inherently higher risk vehicles... but really only for the rider. They seldom cause injury or fatalities for other motorists. This is quite the contrary for cars. On a motorcycle, you are largely responsible for your own safety. Even then, some states have no helmet laws and some people love that "freedom". Subsequently, the states with no helmet laws have higher rates of organ donors so that's a good thing? However, the most important aspect here is that motorcyclists are a small minority. They really don't represent enough of a population of motorists to matter in terms of general traffic safety. Also don't forget that in many states, motorcycling is only realistic certain seasons of the year.

I'm just going to pass on asteroids for reasons you already mentioned.

As for airbags, they are definitely a pros vs. cons topic. There is no doubt that the plentiful airbags we now have in cars are unnecessarily totaling cars as we've seen here. It's sad to think a beloved Kizashi is going to the crusher from a minor collision because most of the airbags deployed (too expensive to replace and repair airbag components). The other side is the benefit that airbags offer. The industry took notice that even when seatbelts were used, there were significant external and internal bodily injuries to occupants in collisions. Researchers, medical professionals, and engineers were finding that many drivers had injuries to their ribs and organs from the steering wheel, even when wearing a seatbelt. Another major concern was mitigating the impact of the internal organs inside the body on bones and other organs. A seatbelt did not do much to alleviate a body's internal impact but airbags did. It was from this sort of study and research that airbags were born. Subsequently, serious internal injuries were reduced. While airbags totaled cars easier, serious injuries were mitigated overall. Personally, I'd rather have ruptured headliners and airbags deployed totaling my Kizashi over a ruptured liver and broken ribs. Cars are replaceable. Are you?

As for the part about life and risks: Yes. I agree. I partake in "risky" activities that many criticize. I ride a motorcycle and I'm also very outdoorsy. I love to hike at night (doing it long before it became a thing due to the pandemic) and I do it in cougar country. My job is also not the safest and the pandemic didn't have me working from home at all as constitutional rights do not "stay at home". However, with automobiles, the risk factor involves more than one individual driver or their car. The consequence of one's negligence can affect others on the road or on the sidewalk. It's not hard to imagine why then that systems that prevent, reduce, or mitigate the severity of the worst case scenario are implemented and will continue to be.

Lastly, don't forget that Ben Franklin was an innovator. He was an intelligent man who sought discovery and invention. I have a strong feeling he'd side with innovation for solutions rather than sulk about a liberty that's actually not at risk. He also liked drinking so I think the idea of an automated car driving him around while he's wasted would have tickled his fancy.

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2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport GTS 6MT (Black)
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