KBB depreciation value of the Kizashi...

[KuroNekko]

Yes I felt that the Kiz competed very well with entry level luxury sedans from past generations. It looks better to me then even a 2012 base 3 series. Time of course will pass it by, since there is no update coming for the Kiz.
The mid-size sedan marktet is very competitive with companies looking to get any edge. While I find the newer models to have come up to the Kiz's level I feel the Kizashi has the handling edge with possibly the 6 getting close. I also think a lot of car companies are missing out on the opportunity to add an AWD model to their lineup.
The legacy is built around AWD and the fusion offers it on their top of the line model (which is a mistake in my book). With the Kizashi you could get AWD on the base model and still (looking at you legacy) have a exciting car to drive. Imagine how many people would flock from Subaru to nissan, mazda etc, if they offered AWD at a reasonable price.

The AWD offering did make the Kizashi unique. Too bad it wasn't offered in both transmissions or I would have got an AWD manual.

Regarding Subaru: The Legacy does not handle as well as the Kizashi, but it's not horrible. Having owned both a Legacy wagon and an Impreza coupe in the past, I'm rather a big fan of Subaru. Imprezas are definitely better handling cars than the Legacy.
Also, many people are flocking to Subaru from other brands. Their sales figures are climbing and they are looking to grow in the US market. Even if rivals offered AWD, their systems would not be as good as Subaru's given Subaru uses Permanent AWD while most others use FWD-biased AWD systems. Their cars are also among the safest on the road and haven't been subject to recalls like nearly everyone else.
Subarus from my experience are sturdy cars, but aren't the most exciting. They reserve excitement for their turbocharged models like the WRX and the STI. In general, Subarus are reliable and durable, but questionably styled and not too exciting to drive.

Mazdas are like the opposite. They are fun to drive and generally look good. Their styling is typically among the best of the Japanese (FD RX-7, anyone?) My Mazda3 had sharp handling and an excellent shifter which made it a very fun-to-drive compact. I've driven Civics and Corollas and they are sedatives compared to a Mazda3.
However, Mazdas are generally not as durable nor long-lasting like other Japanese cars from Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Subaru. My Mazda3 was the least reliable and least durable car I've owned (though it was still very reliable, it wasn't quite at the bulletproof status of my previous Subarus or Suzuki SUV).

The unique thing about the Kizashi is that it joined together good characteristics from other cars. For example, it has a capable AWD system as a sedan much like a Subaru Legacy. However, it also has excellent handling for a midsize sedan much like a Mazda6. The Kizashi is also rather safe, durable, and reliable, but also looks good and is fun to drive. The Kizashi is like the cross-bred offspring of a Legacy and a Mazda6.

[Knightstruth]

Yes I felt that the Kiz competed very well with entry level luxury sedans from past generations. It looks better to me then even a 2012 base 3 series. Time of course will pass it by, since there is no update coming for the Kiz.
The mid-size sedan marktet is very competitive with companies looking to get any edge. While I find the newer models to have come up to the Kiz's level I feel the Kizashi has the handling edge with possibly the 6 getting close. I also think a lot of car companies are missing out on the opportunity to add an AWD model to their lineup.
The legacy is built around AWD and the fusion offers it on their top of the line model (which is a mistake in my book). With the Kizashi you could get AWD on the base model and still (looking at you legacy) have a exciting car to drive. Imagine how many people would flock from Subaru to nissan, mazda etc, if they offered AWD at a reasonable price.

The AWD offering did make the Kizashi unique. Too bad it wasn't offered in both transmissions or I would have got an AWD manual.

Regarding Subaru: The Legacy does not handle as well as the Kizashi, but it's not horrible. Having owned both a Legacy wagon and an Impreza coupe in the past, I'm rather a big fan of Subaru. Imprezas are definitely better handling cars than the Legacy.
Also, many people are flocking to Subaru from other brands. Their sales figures are climbing and they are looking to grow in the US market. Even if rivals offered AWD, their systems would not be as good as Subaru's given Subaru uses Permanent AWD while most others use FWD-biased AWD systems. Their cars are also among the safest on the road and haven't been subject to recalls like nearly everyone else.
Subarus from my experience are sturdy cars, but aren't the most exciting. They reserve excitement for their turbocharged models like the WRX and the STI. In general, Subarus are reliable and durable, but questionably styled and not too exciting to drive.

Mazdas are like the opposite. They are fun to drive and generally look good. Their styling is typically among the best of the Japanese (FD RX-7, anyone?) My Mazda3 had sharp handling and an excellent shifter which made it a very fun-to-drive compact. I've driven Civics and Corollas and they are sedatives compared to a Mazda3.
However, Mazdas are generally not as durable nor long-lasting like other Japanese cars from Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Subaru. My Mazda3 was the least reliable and least durable car I've owned (though it was still very reliable, it wasn't quite at the bulletproof status of my previous Subarus or Suzuki SUV).

The unique thing about the Kizashi is that it joined together good characteristics from other cars. For example, it has a capable AWD system as a sedan much like a Subaru Legacy. However, it also has excellent handling for a midsize sedan much like a Mazda6. The Kizashi is also rather safe, durable, and reliable, but also looks good and is fun to drive. The Kizashi is like the cross-bred offspring of a Legacy and a Mazda6.

If your talking about the 4th gen Legacy then it has some fun to drive characteristics. The 5th gen is not sporty, like at all. I came from a 2012 Legacy ( I really did like it) but it was a very oridinary sedan with AWD.

The 5th gen was major step up in size, features from the 4th gen legacy and I do think they are attractive looking cars. The larger size and more mature looks of both the outback and legacy I feel are a big reason for the good sales numbers. The average car shopper is not gonna compare AWD setups to each other, they typically just want AWD.

I like really like Subaru's but I feel like a lot of car companies the myth is greater than the reality. Based only on my experience my 2005 325xi outperformed in the snow my 2012 legacy, and it is not close. I did not have stock tires on my Legacy either because they were not good on slick roads at all. My Kizashi handles better in the winter also. It could be weight as the Legacy is the lightest.

When you deal with snow a lot of people want AWD. That is why SUV sales (in the U.S.) are good. Cars have yet to take off with this option which is really a missed oportunity. I am very confidiant that if the mainstream brands offered AWD, Subaru would lose sales.

[KuroNekko]

If your talking about the 4th gen Legacy then it has some fun to drive characteristics. The 5th gen is not sporty, like at all. I came from a 2012 Legacy ( I really did like it) but it was a very oridinary sedan with AWD.

The 5th gen was major step up in size, features from the 4th gen legacy and I do think they are attractive looking cars. The larger size and more mature looks of both the outback and legacy I feel are a big reason for the good sales numbers. The average car shopper is not gonna compare AWD setups to each other, they typically just want AWD.

I like really like Subaru's but I feel like a lot of car companies the myth is greater than the reality. Based only on my experience my 2005 325xi outperformed in the snow my 2012 legacy, and it is not close. I did not have stock tires on my Legacy either because they were not good on slick roads at all. My Kizashi handles better in the winter also. It could be weight as the Legacy is the lightest.

When you deal with snow a lot of people want AWD. That is why SUV sales (in the U.S.) are good. Cars have yet to take off with this option which is really a missed oportunity. I am very confidiant that if the mainstream brands offered AWD, Subaru would lose sales.

You're not the only person to make that comment about the 4th gen vs. 5th gen Legacy. Just about everyone and every publication has said the 4th was a better driver's car as the 5th got bloated and bland. Another complaint was that they killed off the wagon in the 5th gen and made the Outback the only way to go for a wagon of that size.
I've driven a 4th gen Legacy and liked it. I have never driven a 5th gen. I wonder how the upcoming 6th gen Legacy will be though they will only be with CVTs.

Regarding Subaru AWD, I think to be fair, you need all the cars to have the same tires. After all, tires are more important than AWD system in terms of traction. That being said, I'd rather have a permanent AWD system than a Full-Time that sends power to the rear wheels on a need basis. It's no secret why the best names in AWD (Subaru and Audi) use Permanent AWD systems. I believe Permanent AWD systems also offer an advantage in dry traction as well such as cornering grip.

AWDs are more common now than in the past. 15 years ago, you were very limited in vehicle choice if you wanted a 4 wheel drive system. About the only ones who offered sedans with AWD were Subaru and Audi. Now, many companies offer optional AWD. However, foreign markets are still better with engine, transmission, and drivetrain choices. I know Japan offers AWD in a number of cars that are only 2WD in the USDM.

While AWD systems are great for foul weather, in the deep stuff, ground clearance matters. This is why some people prefer SUVs over sedans with AWD. AWD is great until it gets to be over a foot deep in snow. After that, low slung cars like the Kizashi, Impreza, Legacy, etc. will start to drag on snow. Approach and departure angles also matter for clearing snow berms. I used to live on a mountain that got a lot of snow each year. Our plows weren't trucks but double shovel tractors to handle the alpine conditions. There were times when it snowed so much that roads could not be plowed in time and AWD sedans were simply snowed in because the snow was too deep. This is where true 4x4 SUVs with low gearing and ground clearance excelled. You pretty much needed one to traverse roads that weren't maintained like back roads and trails.
While I preferred my Subaru Impreza most of the time for snow-covered roads, there were occasions when it got so deep only the Suzuki Sidekick with chains on could make it through.

In essence, what was great about my Subaru Impreza (and I imagine the AWD Kizashi) was that it did well in the snow for the most part and then was a good cruiser off of the mountain on the So Cal freeways. It did both roles of mountain snow car and freeway cruiser rather well while the Suzuki SUV was more a one-trick pony that excelled in the rough stuff. I miss both cars each for their own unique qualities, but the Kizashi has them beat as my favorite car.

[Knightstruth]

If your talking about the 4th gen Legacy then it has some fun to drive characteristics. The 5th gen is not sporty, like at all. I came from a 2012 Legacy ( I really did like it) but it was a very oridinary sedan with AWD.

The 5th gen was major step up in size, features from the 4th gen legacy and I do think they are attractive looking cars. The larger size and more mature looks of both the outback and legacy I feel are a big reason for the good sales numbers. The average car shopper is not gonna compare AWD setups to each other, they typically just want AWD.

I like really like Subaru's but I feel like a lot of car companies the myth is greater than the reality. Based only on my experience my 2005 325xi outperformed in the snow my 2012 legacy, and it is not close. I did not have stock tires on my Legacy either because they were not good on slick roads at all. My Kizashi handles better in the winter also. It could be weight as the Legacy is the lightest.

When you deal with snow a lot of people want AWD. That is why SUV sales (in the U.S.) are good. Cars have yet to take off with this option which is really a missed oportunity. I am very confidiant that if the mainstream brands offered AWD, Subaru would lose sales.

You're not the only person to make that comment about the 4th gen vs. 5th gen Legacy. Just about everyone and every publication has said the 4th was a better driver's car as the 5th got bloated and bland. Another complaint was that they killed off the wagon in the 5th gen and made the Outback the only way to go for a wagon of that size.
I've driven a 4th gen Legacy and liked it. I have never driven a 5th gen. I wonder how the upcoming 6th gen Legacy will be though they will only be with CVTs.

Regarding Subaru AWD, I think to be fair, you need all the cars to have the same tires. After all, tires are more important than AWD system in terms of traction. That being said, I'd rather have a permanent AWD system than a Full-Time that sends power to the rear wheels on a need basis. It's no secret why the best names in AWD (Subaru and Audi) use Permanent AWD systems. I believe Permanent AWD systems also offer an advantage in dry traction as well such as cornering grip.

AWDs are more common now than in the past. 15 years ago, you were very limited in vehicle choice if you wanted a 4 wheel drive system. About the only ones who offered sedans with AWD were Subaru and Audi. Now, many companies offer optional AWD. However, foreign markets are still better with engine, transmission, and drivetrain choices. I know Japan offers AWD in a number of cars that are only 2WD in the USDM.

While AWD systems are great for foul weather, in the deep stuff, ground clearance matters. This is why some people prefer SUVs over sedans with AWD. AWD is great until it gets to be over a foot deep in snow. After that, low slung cars like the Kizashi, Impreza, Legacy, etc. will start to drag on snow. Approach and departure angles also matter for clearing snow berms. I used to live on a mountain that got a lot of snow each year. Our plows weren't trucks but double shovel tractors to handle the alpine conditions. There were times when it snowed so much that roads could not be plowed in time and AWD sedans were simply snowed in because the snow was too deep. This is where true 4x4 SUVs with low gearing and ground clearance excelled. You pretty much needed one to traverse roads that weren't maintained like back roads and trails.
While I preferred my Subaru Impreza most of the time for snow-covered roads, there were occasions when it got so deep only the Suzuki Sidekick with chains on could make it through.

In essence, what was great about my Subaru Impreza (and I imagine the AWD Kizashi) was that it did well in the snow for the most part and then was a good cruiser off of the mountain on the So Cal freeways. It did both roles of mountain snow car and freeway cruiser rather well while the Suzuki SUV was more a one-trick pony that excelled in the rough stuff. I miss both cars each for their own unique qualities, but the Kizashi has them beat as my favorite car.

The 5th generation Legacy to me was a very good looking car, more along the lines of older generation lexus. Current Legacy's have a 60-40 split front to rear for their awd system. The BMW 325xi I had was 38 -62 split which could make a difference in handling in winter driving.

I agree with you about that the tires need to be equal to get a fair comparison, but my point was that the Legacy was the worse of the 3 cars I mentioned. The problem with the legacy on slick surfaces is twofold: 1. they have a horrible traction control that comes on way too late. I recommend turning it off, otherwise it is pretty scary how late it is. 2. The car does not corner well so the back end would slide out and not give you that inspired confidence you need during winter driving.

In regards to AWD sedans, there may be more but how many are talking about at the mid-size level? You have to go up to the full-size/ entry level luxury sedans to find them. Here in Iowa many people would jump at the opportunity to buy a reasonably priced AWD sedan. When I had my Legacy most people never heard of the car. AWD Accord and Camry, you bet suvs would lose sales if that happened. At mid-size you now have 2 options in the u.s. and that is the legacy or pay a ransom for the Fusion (which by then you are better off with several other choices from different categories).

[Moto]

Well... this thread rumbled back to life...

Back to page three. Yes, I would be looking for one with AWD.

Stability as speed is what I'm looking for. I really only end up driving about 10 miles of gravel at any time right now. Occasionally, the road is reduced to a 4 wheel drive trail but they tend to fix things quickly.

As far as some of the new direct injected turbo cars... I do think my turbo forester may last quite awhile as it tends to keep the RPM fairly low at speed. Load on the engine feels fairly minimal until you call on the boost. That said I may dump the Forster before 100K as I'm in the boost more than I probably should be. I'm not sure that slight boost on the highway is really going to hurt anything, but it sure kills the gas mileage. I've been getting between 18-23 highway. Speed will remain undisclosed, but feel free to use your imagination. (about half of my drive occurs on a road where I may meet 1 car/hour and you can see about 6 miles at a time)<-Not exaggerating

The first time I arrive at a site I have a lot of gear, but I tend to go back to the same location quite a few time over the course of a month.

I think a Kizashi is probably a really good fit for my needs....
Nice car
handles well at speed
AWD
shouldn't break the bank
relatively safe given the size

I'm going to Europe for a couple weeks now though so I'll probably hold off on the car.

My other thought processes is that my girlfriend would probably like the kizashi as well.. She is driving a gen 3 sable with a vulcan engine.

[KuroNekko]

In regards to AWD sedans, there may be more but how many are talking about at the mid-size level? You have to go up to the full-size/ entry level luxury sedans to find them. Here in Iowa many people would jump at the opportunity to buy a reasonably priced AWD sedan. When I had my Legacy most people never heard of the car. AWD Accord and Camry, you bet suvs would lose sales if that happened. At mid-size you now have 2 options in the u.s. and that is the legacy or pay a ransom for the Fusion (which by then you are better off with several other choices from different categories).

There are actually a few more AWDs in the midsize segment.
The Dodge Charger is offered in AWD. However, it's only a 6 and 8 cylinder car and it's AWD is RWD-based.
The new Chrysler 200 is also offered in AWD with the V6.
That being said, I agree that AWD is a rarity among midsize sedans and makes the Legacy rather unique and the Kizashi enticing when it was offered.
You're right that you pretty much have to go upscale to entry-level luxury cars to find good AWD offerings. The IS, Q50/G37, TL, 3 Series, C Class, A4, etc. all offer AWD versions.

I think most companies rather put you in a CUV when AWD is concerned which seems like a compromise to car enthusiasts like us because they are neither sporty nor very good offroad. However, most people don't really care and just want a vehicle to drive in snow. For them, CUVs make sense.

[Knightstruth]

In regards to AWD sedans, there may be more but how many are talking about at the mid-size level? You have to go up to the full-size/ entry level luxury sedans to find them. Here in Iowa many people would jump at the opportunity to buy a reasonably priced AWD sedan. When I had my Legacy most people never heard of the car. AWD Accord and Camry, you bet suvs would lose sales if that happened. At mid-size you now have 2 options in the u.s. and that is the legacy or pay a ransom for the Fusion (which by then you are better off with several other choices from different categories).

There are actually a few more AWDs in the midsize segment.
The Dodge Charger is offered in AWD. However, it's only a 6 and 8 cylinder car and it's AWD is RWD-based.
The new Chrysler 200 is also offered in AWD with the V6.
That being said, I agree that AWD is a rarity among midsize sedans and makes the Legacy rather unique and the Kizashi enticing when it was offered.
You're right that you pretty much have to go upscale to entry-level luxury cars to find good AWD offerings. The IS, Q50/G37, TL, 3 Series, C Class, A4, etc. all offer AWD versions.

I think most companies rather put you in a CUV when AWD is concerned which seems like a compromise to car enthusiasts like us because they are neither sporty nor very good offroad. However, most people don't really care and just want a vehicle to drive in snow. For them, CUVs make sense.

The dodge Charger is a full-sized car, at least that is the category it is placed in. Did not know about the new 200, hopefully awd is not only exclusive to the "loaded" model.

We won't know if CUVs lose sales unless more AWD sedans are offered. There are a number of people who got the subaru legacy because they like the idea of a car with AWD. You don't have to be an enthusiast to want a AWD sedan.

[Knightstruth]

Well... this thread rumbled back to life...

Back to page three. Yes, I would be looking for one with AWD.

Stability as speed is what I'm looking for. I really only end up driving about 10 miles of gravel at any time right now. Occasionally, the road is reduced to a 4 wheel drive trail but they tend to fix things quickly.

As far as some of the new direct injected turbo cars... I do think my turbo forester may last quite awhile as it tends to keep the RPM fairly low at speed. Load on the engine feels fairly minimal until you call on the boost. That said I may dump the Forster before 100K as I'm in the boost more than I probably should be. I'm not sure that slight boost on the highway is really going to hurt anything, but it sure kills the gas mileage. I've been getting between 18-23 highway. Speed will remain undisclosed, but feel free to use your imagination. (about half of my drive occurs on a road where I may meet 1 car/hour and you can see about 6 miles at a time)<-Not exaggerating

The first time I arrive at a site I have a lot of gear, but I tend to go back to the same location quite a few time over the course of a month.

I think a Kizashi is probably a really good fit for my needs....
Nice car
handles well at speed
AWD
shouldn't break the bank
relatively safe given the size

I'm going to Europe for a couple weeks now though so I'll probably hold off on the car.

My other thought processes is that my girlfriend would probably like the kizashi as well.. She is driving a gen 3 sable with a vulcan engine.

Love the Star Trek reference.

[KuroNekko]

The dodge Charger is a full-sized car, at least that is the category it is placed in. Did not know about the new 200, hopefully awd is not only exclusive to the "loaded" model.

We won't know if CUVs lose sales unless more AWD sedans are offered. There are a number of people who got the subaru legacy because they like the idea of a car with AWD. You don't have to be an enthusiast to want a AWD sedan.

Yes, technically, the Charger is a "Full Size/Large" car, but to me, I treat it more as a midsize for a number of reasons:
1) Price. It's rather cheap for what it offers and compared to other large cars.
2) The Dodge Avenger (a real midsize) is now discontinued.
3) It just does not look that big to me.
Keep in mind that the Kizashi's dimensions actually make it a "Compact" car in the US and not technically a "Midsize" though it was clearly intended to be a midsize offering for Suzuki.

The Chrysler 200 is brand new and the AWD is only offered with the V6 engine meaning that you need to go upscale to have it, much like the Ford Fusion.

While I understand that some like us want AWD without a CUV/SUV body, most don't care enough. Subaru even knew this and that's why they killed off the Legacy wagon and made those seeking a wagon get the Outback which is basically a CUV now. It wasn't a bad move given Outbacks were more popular than Legacy wagons anyway (in fact, the Outback was the best selling vehicle in Vermont and Washington last year). Even for Subaru, their CUVs like the Forester and Outback sell better than their AWD sedans.

What was unique about Suzuki was that they offered AWD or 4x4 in their entire North American line-up. They were like a cheaper alternative to Subaru that made AWD optional instead of standard.

[Knightstruth]

The dodge Charger is a full-sized car, at least that is the category it is placed in. Did not know about the new 200, hopefully awd is not only exclusive to the "loaded" model.

We won't know if CUVs lose sales unless more AWD sedans are offered. There are a number of people who got the subaru legacy because they like the idea of a car with AWD. You don't have to be an enthusiast to want a AWD sedan.

Yes, technically, the Charger is a "Full Size/Large" car, but to me, I treat it more as a midsize for a number of reasons:
1) Price. It's rather cheap for what it offers and compared to other large cars.
2) The Dodge Avenger (a real midsize) is now discontinued.
3) It just does not look that big to me.
Keep in mind that the Kizashi's dimensions actually make it a "Compact" car in the US and not technically a "Midsize" though it was clearly intended to be a midsize offering for Suzuki.

The Chrysler 200 is brand new and the AWD is only offered with the V6 engine meaning that you need to go upscale to have it, much like the Ford Fusion.

While I understand that some like us want AWD without a CUV/SUV body, most don't care enough. Subaru even knew this and that's why they killed off the Legacy wagon and made those seeking a wagon get the Outback which is basically a CUV now. It wasn't a bad move given Outbacks were more popular than Legacy wagons anyway (in fact, the Outback was the best selling vehicle in Vermont and Washington last year). Even for Subaru, their CUVs like the Forester and Outback sell better than their AWD sedans.

What was unique about Suzuki was that they offered AWD or 4x4 in their entire North American line-up. They were like a cheaper alternative to Subaru that made AWD optional instead of standard.

The kizashi is yesteryears mid-size car. The charger is compared against the Avalon, 300, impala and maxima.

Subaru's popularity took off when they made their cars more mainstream. The legacy to me is evidence that a lot of everyday drivers want a awd sedan. A sedan will typically offer better fuel economy, acceleration, better cornering and easier to park. I can't count the times I've heard someone say they are deciding between a SUV or car, then pick the SUV because they want "something that can handle the winter".

My next choice of car without breaking the bank would appear to be a base wrx or legacy. Fusion and the 200 seem to close to a base entry level luxury car price.