Allstate Drivewise and other ODBII port insurance devices

Find out what others are paying for insurance on the Kizashi. Let members know what kind of financing and insurance rates they can expect to see.
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KuroNekko
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~tc~ wrote:I think everyone would have to agree its safer to drive 80 MPH in a Kizashi than, say 55 in a '73, well, anything, in terms of handling, braking, acceleration - accident avoidance, not just safety if the accident happens.
I would agree in terms of comparing just the cars, but in the end, it's the road and conditions that should determine what's a safe speed, not the car. I'd feel safe going near 100 MPH on the I-10 through Texas. I'd not feel safe doing that on most parts of the Capital Beltway around DC.

I agree with you that modern cars are much safer than older cars. Many older folks talk about how cars were so much tougher and safer in the past. It's a misconception. You were far more likely to die in car crashes in the past than now. People think that weight and size have a lot do with safety and don't take into account modern safety designs and use of advanced materials.

This video best demonstrates how far cars have come in terms of crash safety. It compares two popular Chevy models made 50 years apart.

[youtube][/youtube]

Ronzuki wrote:Not only the distractions from the tech, but the fact that the tech is performing more and more of the thinking/learning aspects of driving. I'm talking real driving. tc hit the nail...people haven't learned to really 'drive' the machine unless they learned how to drive with one of those zero-tech 60s or 70s (or older) sleds. No power steering, no power brakes (and all 4 corners w/drum brakes to boot), absolutely abysmal handling, bias ply tires, heavy chasis', and a host of other dynamics. Anti-lock brakes were your right foot and your brain telling it to pump the peddle. The human brain learned all about those dynamics coming together in all weather conditions. One learned what speed, handling (lack of) and road conditions truly meant. You learned real quick the cars responses of 'don't do that, I won't like it and bad things will happen' (therefore, don't do it again). But then again, once you learned, it was a lot of fun to take a RWD car and make a turn by simply applying gobs of power to the rear wheels, that had absolutely no traction, and apply a tiny bit of steering. Simple physics. WESHOOT states he's been spending more time driving the Kiz with the car's traction 'puter quassi-disabled so he can use his own processor to experience and 'learn' how to really drive the car (as best as possible at least). Why? Because it's what driving really is.
Keep in mind it's technologies like ABS, ESP, traction control, etc. that have greatly reduced the number of automobile crashes and fatalities. They simply take critical control from the driver in a moment of panic and respond in a way to minimize the loss of control. Humans are susceptible of making mistakes when panicking. Computers and sensors never panic.

While I agree that many drivers may not be as talented as in the past, fewer are dying behind the wheel. Keep in mind that most people who you see driving aren't car or driving enthusiasts. They simply use an automobile as a transportation appliance. This is how the majority of people see cars and driving. Because of this, it's a good thing technologies are implemented to keep people safer from themselves. It also works to keep you safer from them.
2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport GTS 6MT (Black)
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Ronzuki
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[quote="KuroNekko]
They simply use an automobile as a transportation appliance. This is how the majority of people see cars and driving. Because of this, it's a good thing technologies are implemented to keep people safer from themselves. It also works to keep you safer from them.
[/quote]

My point exactly. Take a bus or train, walk or ride a bike (oh wait, I've had to dodge people on bikes because they're fiddling w/ their electronics). In other words, learn how to drive or stay the hell off the road. That's the safest thing for everyone. Take a motorcycle rider safety course and you'll really learn how to drive down the road attempting to keep yourself safe from others. It's work and involves paying very close attention to your driving, and most important of all, paying closer attention to the way others are driving. Constant threat assessment.

More and more licensed 'drivers' are not qualified to operate the machine. People's indifference to the consequences of their actions and how they affect anyone, including themselves, is astonishing. Just yesterday I was heading in to work (speeding mind you...45 on a posted 40 stretch) and was passed on a double yellow rumble stripped line after being severely tailgated for more than 2 miles less. This 'driver' passed me less than 300 yards from a very dangerous intersection where many a T-bone has occurred. She actually got back in front of me after we crossed through the intersection. No concern at all by the 'driver'. All routine.... arm flopped out the window like she was on a Sunday stroll. This type of thing occurs daily. What kind of tech is going to get shoved down my throat to fix that problem?

A lesson in the history of failed road safety attempts:
First we paint double yellow lines down the middle of the road to indicate here's your lane, dumbazz, stay on your side. Because that didn't work, we put up signs that state "no passing zone". Because it is such a difficult task to remain in ones lane, we have added expensive air bags, crumple zones and a host of other expensive safety features now to protect everyone from themselves and others. Next we permit cell devices, phones, computers in the dash, etc. in the cars. All operational btw while it's in gear and moving. Idiots are now routinely crossing those lines into oncoming traffic because they choose to not drive their machine in favor of fiddling with something they shouldn't be, despite the costly laws, warnings, commercials, TV documentaries & news articles telling us all it's a bad idea. And, of course, said idiots are not held accountable for their stupidity (it's somebody else's fault ya know, the lawyers will make sure of that and the courts will approve after great cost is incurred by all). Now we're throwing away good money to grind rumble strips down the center of perfectly good road that just cost a small fortune to repave. All in the name of safety. Guess what? Yep, still crossing the lines. Finally, because all of the above hasn't worked reliably, we're seeing cars starting to appear with automatic braking systems. (soon to be gov mandated as a 'must have' if you want to sell in the U.S. I'm sure). How about that $40,000 econo-box commuter car? Bottom line: 'Safer', at all levels, is rapidly becoming seriously unsustainable in this country. At what point do we let Darwinism run its course?

Mandated safety being one of many negative factors, I'm sure, that contributed to Suzuki's pull-out from N. America. Safer (as dictated by our contradicting laws and 'standards') doesn't really fit their business model as evidenced by the other markets they serve that are bigger and where they can make profit.
Ron

2010 Kizashi GTS, CVT, iAWD (3/10 build date)
2011 SX4 Premium Hatch, CVT, iAWD (12/10 build date)
2018 Mazda CX-5 iAWD Touring
2014 Wrangler JKUW (GONE, traded :D :D )
1991 Samurai, 5-Speed, EFI, Soft-Top ( :| sold)
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KuroNekko
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I agree with many of your points, but the Darwinism approach doesn't quite work the way we want with cars. After all, these lousy drivers end up getting into accidents with other people like you and me. Do you really want some deliberately low-tech car driven by some idiot smashing into your or a loved-one's car and possibly injuring or killing them?
It happens all too often. I know of someone I went to high school with who got into an accident this way. Some chump in a Dodge Viper lost control speeding in the opposite lane, swerved into hers, and smashed into her CR-V. She broke both of her legs while her infant daughter in the rear baby seat also sustained injuries. She was doing nothing wrong yet the other driver caused life-altering injuries to her because he lost control of his Viper for whatever reason. She basically had to relearn to walk while taking care of an injured newborn all while her Army husband was deployed overseas.

My neighbor recently attended the funeral of his best friend. He and his wife were killed when some driver ran into them from behind at a stop light. The vehicle basically combusted upon impact.

These are the very kinds of things that need to be reduced. While I agree that it's annoying to deal with government-mandated safety regulations, I rather have that than be the victim of idiots on the road.
It's an everlasting battle of government playing Big Brother versus dealing with private entities who can care less about your welfare or even prey on it.
While some people may say that they rather take their chances without regulations, you'll sing a different tune if you're ever the victim and learn it could have been prevented.
Deregulation definitely has its dangers. Everything from consumer safety to economic stability is at risk and there are countless examples.

It comes down to whether you think the government should control things vs. dealing with stupid people and the mess they cause.
I f%#king hate stupid people who create problems for others like me.
2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport GTS 6MT (Black)
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Ronzuki
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KuroNekko wrote:It comes down to whether you think the government should control things vs. dealing with stupid people and the mess they cause.
I f%#king hate stupid people who create problems for others like me.
We all have stories of people we know and the life altering consequences. My old man was t-boned on our cycle when I was a junior in high school. Instant retirement and that changed the entire course of my life. I don't have a problem specifically w/ the tech, I just don't want someone telling me what I have to purchase.
I want the choice to obtain the additional 'safety' features or take a pass. The tech has limits so what happens when another idot pusheds the tech past its limitations? Who's at fault? It all costs.
I believe that the idiots should be publicly persecuted relentlessly and not protected as our legal system all too often does. That would educate the masses pretty clearly. We know that won't happen because it would be hurtful. (ther's laws against that)
Government isn't the answer. Government as a whole is self-serving and inept at just about everything it looks at, thinks about or touches. I don't know what the real solution to any of it is, hence the Darwinism approach.

Look at it this way...stupid =pond scum. We all know a body of water can be suffocated and not sustain life when it's overrun by scum. Pond scum doubles daily. At first it's not that big of a problem but left unchecked, the pond scum level quickly rises to 50%. Then what?
Ron

2010 Kizashi GTS, CVT, iAWD (3/10 build date)
2011 SX4 Premium Hatch, CVT, iAWD (12/10 build date)
2018 Mazda CX-5 iAWD Touring
2014 Wrangler JKUW (GONE, traded :D :D )
1991 Samurai, 5-Speed, EFI, Soft-Top ( :| sold)
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redmed
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Letting a company or any entity (ie. the government) have extra information about yourself is a mistake that will haunt you the rest of your life. Statisticians and bureaucrats can and will use this data to further their goals and ambitions not yours. I was a Analyst for a large corporation and can tell you that data and generalities are routinely twisted and applied to specific individuals as excuses to restrict or penalize you.
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SamirD
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Excellent review KuroNekko on that Allstate device. I was wondering what the fuss of these things was all about. Seems it's much a do about nothing.

On the topic of driving safety in terms of speed. I personally don't think speed is the cause. If so, I (and probably WESHOOT too) should be dead by now. You see, I have no idea how many tickets I have gotten in the last 20+ years of driving, but it's been so many that I've had my license suspended twice and have spend in excess of $10k on attorney's fees on just simple speeding tickets. Accidents? One where it was just me when I was just starting. One where I didn't watch closely enough and thought the car in front had already taken the right turn. If speed was a direct factor in accidents, I should have had a lot more.

The real culprit in my opinion is driver training. It's too easy to get a license and everyone thinks they have a 'right' to one simply because a car has become a necessity in a majority of the US. And the problem is that if everyone can't drive, there will be other consequences, so why not let every moron on the road and force everyone to pay for it? Sounds bureaucratic enough to work.

I once met professional Indy car driver Scott Sharp. My only question to him was 'what do you get charged for insurance? I mean, you can drive a car at 155mph better than almost everyone at 55mph'. His answer? He gets the same treatment as we do. Even though he could probably get out of a 90mph sideways slide in the rain avoiding everything else on the road, he gets treated no better than the blonde who panics and locks the brakes and slams head-on into everything. This is the insurance industry's fault. They wouldn't make as much money if they had to evaluate 'true' risk.

PS. I've missed the wonderful and civil discussions we have on here like this while I've been gone!
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Ronzuki
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murcod wrote: I have to wonder - what if you had an accident and they deemed you were speeding? Would they use that evidence against you?
Yes, 'they' will and have for many years now here. Most modern cars already have black boxes recording such data that the police and investigators interrogate for really bad (ie deadly) accidents.
Ron

2010 Kizashi GTS, CVT, iAWD (3/10 build date)
2011 SX4 Premium Hatch, CVT, iAWD (12/10 build date)
2018 Mazda CX-5 iAWD Touring
2014 Wrangler JKUW (GONE, traded :D :D )
1991 Samurai, 5-Speed, EFI, Soft-Top ( :| sold)
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KuroNekko
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These devices really don't track accurate or precise enough information for it to be used against you if some accident was to occur. After all, they can't track location very accurately. The most precise they can get is reveal the location of the cell site that the module communicated with (assuming they can even do that). Given these devices aren't GPS-enabled, they can't track location information accurately. Parameters like speed are not from GPS nor cell site triangulation; it's from the OBD II port of the car. The car is generating the data, not some other means.

Also, the program evaluates your speed score based on a set speed of 80 MPH and is not measuring your speed vs. the speed limit of the location at all times. Basically, it only cares if you travel over 80 MPH or not. Consequently, I got a Speed score of A+ but it didn't mean I was always driving at the speed limit. It just means I kept my speeds under 80.

Also, the insurance companies that use these devices claim to not track your locations due to privacy issues. If it was revealed that they in fact do, it will be a breach of contract and legally, not admissible in court. A defendant can move to have that excluded as evidence given the information was arguably illegally obtained.

The black boxes in cars are still nothing like what's found in aircraft. In fact, I've seen a few forensic auto accident reports and what's far more important is the car's physical shape and the accident scene around it (trajectory, skid marks, etc.) The car's components are checked more to rule out vehicular component failure than the culpability of the operator.
2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport GTS 6MT (Black)
bootymac
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts! We don't have these where I live so I've always wondered how well they work (or not)
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KuroNekko
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bootymac wrote:Thanks for sharing your thoughts! We don't have these where I live so I've always wondered how well they work (or not)
No problem. It just happens that I do a lot of cell site analysis (for cell phones) for criminal cases and know very well how cell site data works in terms of location information. It's not at all this precise tracking system like the movies or even real life authorities make it seem. Honestly, unless a device is GPS-enabled (as in satellite GPS) and historically logs the data, it's not a very good means of calculating and revealing anything like precise location or speed later.
2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport GTS 6MT (Black)
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