Does anyone actually know the specs of the OEM filter? It would be great to know what the filtration efficiency, flow rate and bypass PSI is for comparison.
I noticed that Suzuki lists this filter for many applications including vehicles (with varying engine sizes), motorcycles and even marine?! I'm curious to see how critical the filter specs are if it can serve so many applications.
FYI: OEM oil filter dissected
You've got no proof the Mobil 1 filter performs any better than the OEM - it's all assumption. Just because a filter looks a bit classier doesn't mean it will perform any better. It's a strange assumption to say Suzuki build their filters down to a price. In fact, it would be crazy for them to do that. Remember Suzuki warrant the engine and have to pay the bills if their filter causes engine failure under warranty! (Good luck getting any money out of Mobil if their filter caused an engine failure.)KuroNekko wrote: No one is really condemning the OEM filter but to assume that just because it's the OEM filter, it would be the best filter you can get is a fallacy.
Keep in mind that OEMs have to manufacture at a certain price point. They can't make their filters cost too much which then affects the quality of the materials and construction.
While I agree that there are many benefits to OEM filters that outweigh the costs, some folks like me would have to be greatly inconvenienced to get my hands on them. On the contrary, I could get something like a Mobil 1 oil filter at my local auto parts store which is most likely a superior filter (it costs more too).
Lastly, consider the fact that Suzuki is not designing nor manufacturing the filter. No car manufacturer does. They simply have parts/filter manufacturers supply the filters that they label as OEM. There are many "aftermarket" filters that are identical to OEM filters because that filter maker is the one that manufactured the OEM filter in the first place.
Regardless, price is never a good way to compare product quality. You're paying extra money for a highly marketed name when you buy anything with Mobil 1 plastered on it. All that advertising costs them money.
Yes, it's almost guaranteed Suzuki farm out the filter manufacturing to another company. But, at the end of the day, they designed the engine and would have the filter made to suit the engine's requirements. With aftermarket you're getting a generic filter that bolts on -with who knows what specs.
If you're unfortunate enough to have an engine die under warranty you're going to be in a world of hurt with aftermarket parts and a service history involving non OEM mechanics.
PS: Each to their own. I posted the info to get people thinking.
David
While no automotive manufacturer makes their own filters (or other parts for that matter), there IS a difference in OEM and aftermarket products, even when produced by the same vendor. It's something that isn't visible to the eye, but it is there.KuroNekko wrote:Lastly, consider the fact that Suzuki is not designing nor manufacturing the filter. No car manufacturer does. They simply have parts/filter manufacturers supply the filters that they label as OEM. There are many "aftermarket" filters that are identical to OEM filters because that filter maker is the one that manufactured the OEM filter in the first place.
I know because when I bought and sold both OEM and aftermarket parts as a distributor, even at wholesale costs OEM parts are substantially higher cost and usually with substantially better quality. There are exceptions to this rule (like our TPMS sensors), but generally OEM>aftermarket even by the same vendor.
And what's interesting is a Suzuki service writer (who's a real fan of the Kizashi) and services hundreds of Kizashis a month specifically condemned the Mobil 1 filter for the Kizashi.murcod wrote:You've got no proof the Mobil 1 filter performs any better than the OEM - it's all assumption.
Japanese cars typically have very good filters for their engines, brake pads for their brake systems, shocks for their suspensions. They're never the absolute best, but they're typically better than average. I want to believe Suzuki follows suit.
I agree that we need specs. But then we need specs of the engine and wear areas, and pressure requirements, and graphs and charts, and engineers to analyze the data.bootymac wrote:Before the OEM versus aftermarket filter debate continues, I just want to say that everything is an assumption without any specs. We need facts and specs to make meaningful contributions. It's a fairly objective topic
My thinking is that Suzuki already did this when they made the OEM filter. I know the OEM vendors and aftermarket didn't. They can only reverse engineer the part to try to figure out the original specs.
You've obviously never been on BITOG (the most respected and obsessive lubricant and related forum in the world) nor seen many sites/videos that open up oil filters and compare them side by side. I have. It's not an assumption that Mobil 1 filters are made superior to most, including OEM. It's simply a fact.murcod wrote: You've got no proof the Mobil 1 filter performs any better than the OEM - it's all assumption. Just because a filter looks a bit classier doesn't mean it will perform any better. It's a strange assumption to say Suzuki build their filters down to a price. In fact, it would be crazy for them to do that. Remember Suzuki warrant the engine and have to pay the bills if their filter causes engine failure under warranty! (Good luck getting any money out of Mobil if their filter caused an engine failure.)
Regardless, price is never a good way to compare product quality. You're paying extra money for a highly marketed name when you buy anything with Mobil 1 plastered on it. All that advertising costs them money.
Yes, it's almost guaranteed Suzuki farm out the filter manufacturing to another company. But, at the end of the day, they designed the engine and would have the filter made to suit the engine's requirements. With aftermarket you're getting a generic filter that bolts on -with who knows what specs.
If you're unfortunate enough to have an engine die under warranty you're going to be in a world of hurt with aftermarket parts and a service history involving non OEM mechanics.
PS: Each to their own. I posted the info to get people thinking.
For example, see how the OEM filter Bootymac dissected uses a material similar to the filter media as end caps? Guess what M1 uses? Solid metal. See below.
Also, premium filters like Mobil 1 have stronger canisters that give the filter a higher burst strength which is a factor for racing applications and offroading. They are simply far more durable.
Premium filters also have more pleats and typically use a better filter media material. This allows them to hold more contaminants and keep the oil cleaner for longer.
Here's an Acura forum thread comparing their Honda OEM filter vs. a Mobil 1. The photos aren't working well, but you can read the observations.
http://rdx.acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=682139
There are countless videos on youtube that dissect a Mobil 1 and compare it to lesser filters. It's not about branding. It's about design, materials, and quality. This affects price. It's not just advertising that makes the M1 filter cost double that of the OEM filter. When a manufacturer uses better filter media, stronger canisters, and metal components instead of fiber or paper, it's simply going to cost more to produce. That cost gets past on to the consumer in product price. Quality always comes at a price. Hence, the Mobil 1 filter costs about $13 while the OEM and comparable cost about half of that.
Also, not sure why you think automakers will always use the best for OEM parts. Of course they have to worry about cost. They want to make profit. You think Suzuki would use $13 filters as OEM? No. Why? Because they know most Suzuki customers aren't the type that are willing to pay for a vehicle that's expensive to maintain. Customers would gripe and complain about $13 filters as OEM parts. Also, having a cheaper filter and marking up the cost in service at the dealership would increase profits. They will get a filter that is good enough and not necessarily better than it needs to be for these reasons.
Also, in the US, there is something called the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act that prohibits manufacturers from denying warranty claims if non-OEM parts are used but that part did not cause the issue. This is true of parts like brake pads and oil filters.
More on it here:
http://www.knfilters.com/warrantyletter.htm
Then consider that the OEM filter is more likely to cause an issue than a better-built aftermarket filter like the M1. Really, which should you worry about? The lesser filter with better warranty acceptance or the better filter with compromised (but very unlikely to cause) warranty issues?
Much like many problems in life, prevention is key. Better filters better prevent filter-related problems.
Also keep in mind this is my first car under warranty. I've driven hundreds of thousands of miles on cars without any form of warranty. My maintenance is what kept them running and I only used non-OEM products that were reputable. I've never had any failure related to the quality of these parts.
So in essence, yes, it's better to use OEM stuff for the warranty's sake, but for the engine's sake, it's best to use the better-made product. That's what matters down the road, long after any warranty coverage.
Lastly, unlike you in Australia, Americans like me don't have Suzuki to count on very much. They left us. Any dealings with them would be a pain and I simply avoid them unless I really need to seek out something from them. My shock replacement covered under warranty is the one and only time I've ever taken my Kizashi to a Suzuki service dealer.
Given Suzuki's diminished presence and customer support since their exodus of the US, I have every incentive to use a better product that would reduce the likeliness of needing warranty repairs than a warranty-friendly lesser product. Despite actual warranty coverage, my outlook on the Kizashi is like I'm 100% responsible for it. Because of that, I'm willing to use better products than OEM.
Most importantly, I'm willing to prove it here. No point talking about it when this topic is about actual dissection and observations. At my next oil change, I will preserve my current Mobil 1 filter for a dissection to show that this filter is superior to the OEM filter dissected by Bootymac.
2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport GTS 6MT (Black)
KuroNekko, while I have no doubt that the Mobil 1 filter is superior in construction, what concerns me is that it may not fit the filter specs the engineers speced for the car. Aftermarket vendors don't have access to engineering data. The automakers have no incentive to give it to them, even at a price.
I'm going to need proof to believe this. It makes no sense that the same company with the same machines, the same materials, and the same workers will produce different quality products of the same specifications just because one is OEM-labeled vs. aftermarket. It's just not logical without evidence to prove it.SamirD wrote:While no automotive manufacturer makes their own filters (or other parts for that matter), there IS a difference in OEM and aftermarket products, even when produced by the same vendor. It's something that isn't visible to the eye, but it is there.KuroNekko wrote:Lastly, consider the fact that Suzuki is not designing nor manufacturing the filter. No car manufacturer does. They simply have parts/filter manufacturers supply the filters that they label as OEM. There are many "aftermarket" filters that are identical to OEM filters because that filter maker is the one that manufactured the OEM filter in the first place.
I know because when I bought and sold both OEM and aftermarket parts as a distributor, even at wholesale costs OEM parts are substantially higher cost and usually with substantially better quality. There are exceptions to this rule (like our TPMS sensors), but generally OEM>aftermarket even by the same vendor.
What was his reason? Isn't he the guy that claimed the Kizashi's OEM filter was special from others simply because it had an anti-drainback valve or bypass valve?SamirD wrote:And what's interesting is a Suzuki service writer (who's a real fan of the Kizashi) and services hundreds of Kizashis a month specifically condemned the Mobil 1 filter for the Kizashi.murcod wrote:You've got no proof the Mobil 1 filter performs any better than the OEM - it's all assumption.
Also, what he said does not make sense. If I recall correctly, he described the workings of an anti-drainback valve, yet pointed out the bypass valve to you. They have different functions. Also, these features are rather commonplace and found on aftermarket products like M1 filter.
I know you had a valvetrain noise when you bought your Kizashi and the service writer blamed your Mobil 1 filter, however, it was more likely your oil. Keep in mind we all have the same engine here and many folks, including yours truly, use the M1 filter with no abnormal noises. The likelihood that the filter is to blame is low and this service writer's explanation was not even feasible given how you relayed it.
I don't know about this guy, but I find most service writers as pseudo-mechanics who babble more bullshit than knowledge and simply count on the customer to be ignorant. It's the mechanics I trust for an opinion, not the dude at the desk.
I experienced this firsthand when I owned my Impreza in California. The Subaru dealership I used to get it serviced at before I started wrenching myself had a Japanese mechanic from Gunma, Japan which is the very place Subaru is from. This guy was practically as pure of a Subaru mechanic as you can ever find given he actually built Subarus in the plants too. He and I used to talk in Japanese and he'd openly tell me that the service advisers say/advise things you don't need in order to make money. He'd point out all the things on the check sheet that were not necessary and tell me, "Don't worry about all this stuff" in Japanese. This saved me a lot of money and deepened my respect for honest and knowledgeable mechanics while proving the desk jockeys at the service desk can be full of it.
2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport GTS 6MT (Black)
Actually, there is a lot of info out there on filter specs. I've seen it tonight researching when I wrote my lengthy reply. Also, it makes no sense to claim that aftermarket vendors have no access to the data. The companies that make the aftermarket filters are the same ones that make OEM filters.SamirD wrote:KuroNekko, while I have no doubt that the Mobil 1 filter is superior in construction, what concerns me is that it may not fit the filter specs the engineers speced for the car. Aftermarket vendors don't have access to engineering data. The automakers have no incentive to give it to them, even at a price.
Suzuki, Honda, GM, etc. make engines. They don't make nor design the filters, alternators, A/C compressors, and all the other parts that attach to it. Their parts suppliers do. Their parts suppliers also make products for the aftermarket.
Keep in mind that even the Mobil 1 filter is made by another company, Champion Labs.
Also, as Bootymac already pointed out, Suzuki uses the Kizashi's filter on a whole array of engines including outboard engines on boats. Honestly, oil filters are far more universal in application than one might imagine.
Oil type, more than filter, would be the more sensitive variable.
2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport GTS 6MT (Black)