Kizashi Club

Your Kizashi Owners Club and Forum 

Non-Suzuki related topics. Anything can go here.
 #42995  by SamirD
 Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:13 pm
NiteRider wrote:The AWD variant of the Model 3 will most likely be my next car. Probably sometime in 2019.
Yeah, and I wonder what other products will be able to do by then, and of course, where Tesla may have evolved in their technology.
 #42999  by KuroNekko
 Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:37 pm
NiteRider wrote:The AWD variant of the Model 3 will most likely be my next car. Probably sometime in 2019.

Unless you put down a deposit for a Tesla Model 3, you're unlikely to get one until past 2020, IMO. They got over 400,000 reservations for the vehicle. While it's realistic that many cancelled their order, you can still deduce that it will take Tesla years to fulfill their pre-orders before they can offer the car to others. However, I don't think that's a bad thing. They will need the time and first wave of customers to work out the kinks and issues that they will inevitably have. They are a new automaker with bespoke EV technology so issues are unquestionably going to arise as they have for the Model S and Model X.

SamirD wrote:I think Tesla has finally figured out the niche that the car fits into, and thus is adjusting the prices accordingly. Insurance is on par with top luxury brands like Mercedes, BMW, and Audi as well as lease payments. Maintenance is even on par when you annualize it.

But even at 100k, the car has much more in driving tech than even the most advanced technologies from Mercedes, BMW, Porsche or anything Japanese. The best those brands can offer today is the ability to brake for you and variable cruise control, and that's it. Complete accident avoidance and self-drive capability right now are things that can't even be fathomed. That's what appeals to me about the Model S.

I think it will take more than cost savings to bring EVs to the forefront. I saw an excellent documentary on netflix last night called 'Revenge of the Electric Car' that documented a lot of what happened from 2008-2011 as it happened. Understanding what made the products from that era 'work' in terms of consumer acceptance as well as what's happening today gives you a good idea of what the future might hold.


Yes, the Autopilot is pretty neat about Tesla, but I think it's mainly appealing to people who aren't interested in driving their cars. It personally doesn't appeal to me very much as I like to drive. Even in heavy traffic, the most I'd want is an efficient electrified powertrain rather than a self-driving vehicle. For me, the main benefit of the technology would be reducing the number of traffic jams I'd sit in because it could prevent the accidents others would get into. I essentially want the technology to drive the cars of people who are otherwise incompetent and/or would rather pay attention to their smartphones than their windshields.

That being said, Autopilot can be useful. My girlfriend's grand uncle owned a Model S. I say it in the past tense because he recently passed away from a heart attack. However, when he was suffering from the heart attack, he was able to have the Autopilot of his Tesla drive him to a hospital. It basically turned into an ambulance for him, automatically driving him to the closest hospital as he just sat there. While he later died, it's still neat to know the car drove him to the hospital's emergency entrance successfully. An almost-lifesaver.
 #43011  by SamirD
 Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:52 am
KuroNekko wrote:
SamirD wrote:I think Tesla has finally figured out the niche that the car fits into, and thus is adjusting the prices accordingly. Insurance is on par with top luxury brands like Mercedes, BMW, and Audi as well as lease payments. Maintenance is even on par when you annualize it.

But even at 100k, the car has much more in driving tech than even the most advanced technologies from Mercedes, BMW, Porsche or anything Japanese. The best those brands can offer today is the ability to brake for you and variable cruise control, and that's it. Complete accident avoidance and self-drive capability right now are things that can't even be fathomed. That's what appeals to me about the Model S.

I think it will take more than cost savings to bring EVs to the forefront. I saw an excellent documentary on netflix last night called 'Revenge of the Electric Car' that documented a lot of what happened from 2008-2011 as it happened. Understanding what made the products from that era 'work' in terms of consumer acceptance as well as what's happening today gives you a good idea of what the future might hold.


Yes, the Autopilot is pretty neat about Tesla, but I think it's mainly appealing to people who aren't interested in driving their cars. It personally doesn't appeal to me very much as I like to drive. Even in heavy traffic, the most I'd want is an efficient electrified powertrain rather than a self-driving vehicle. For me, the main benefit of the technology would be reducing the number of traffic jams I'd sit in because it could prevent the accidents others would get into. I essentially want the technology to drive the cars of people who are otherwise incompetent and/or would rather pay attention to their smartphones than their windshields.

That being said, Autopilot can be useful. My girlfriend's grand uncle owned a Model S. I say it in the past tense because he recently passed away from a heart attack. However, when he was suffering from the heart attack, he was able to have the Autopilot of his Tesla drive him to a hospital. It basically turned into an ambulance for him, automatically driving him to the closest hospital as he just sat there. While he later died, it's still neat to know the car drove him to the hospital's emergency entrance successfully. An almost-lifesaver.
I think there are times that even those of us that love to drive would rather not actively 'drive'. I've been on some long trips where once the road opened up and there was no one around, the pesky speed limit kept things all too boring for me. The other area I think the technology excels is in preventing accidents. This is even more important for the elderly or other less than stellar driving groups. And of course, for the daily commuting makeup artists and barbers that seem to find the drive the best time to do their best work. :lol: :facepalm:

Your girlfriend's grand uncle is a stellar example of how this technology can completely change the game--for the better. 'Drive when you want to, not when you need to' could even be a slogan. The ability to drive manually when you wanted to, and yet in certain situations, enable an self-drive capability that is as safe if not safer than manually driving is a paradigm shift in how we could approach vehicles. 'Road trains' of groups of cars working in tandem to travel just like a train would; commercial trucking could be completely revolutionized as trucks could drive on certain designated routes at certain times on autopilot while the driver rests thereby potentially significantly increasing the number of miles traveled each day. Programmed automatic taxis that would make common runs between point a and b that are currently manually driven each day. The applications are quite broad.

It only dawned on me this morning, but this is the paradigm shift in the automotive industry that the industry couldn't bury like they did with Tucker or DeLorean--instead of waiting for future vehicles to have what Tucker and DeLorean envisioned like seat belts, disc brakes, and air bags, Tesla brings us the future today, and in a real vehicle that can be purchased now. And I don't think this time around that the industry will be able to crush Tesla they way Tucker and DeLorean got crushed.
 #43022  by KuroNekko
 Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:39 pm
There is no way Tesla is getting crushed and tucked away. In fact, their technology and innovation has been so monumental in the industry, just about everyone is trying to mimic it. Mercedes-Benz, Audi, Porsche, Jaguar, Aston Martin, and even Ferrari have all announced they will be seriously investing in EV technology and releasing battery EVs in the near future. Even general automakers like GM, Nissan, Hyundai, etc. are doubling down on their EV commitment. Toyota has even conceded that they need to take battery EVs seriously after years of nay-saying and even ads to ridicule EVs. It must have finally hit them that their hydrogen fuel cell vehicles have no future other than government fleet vehicles. Then we even have all those Chinese Tesla-wannabes like Faraday Future trying to mimic the recipe of Tesla with their bankrupt vaporware.

I am certain Tesla isn't going away. However, as the mainstream automakers get serious about the technology, Tesla will have fierce competition both in commuter EVs and in performance EVs. Given that brands like Audi, Porsche, Aston Martin, etc. will be making EVs soon, they will not only bring brand recognition and prestige, but racing pedigree and heritage that Tesla simply doesn't have. For the affordable commuters, we are already seeing GM trying to get some Model 3 fans into the new Chevy Bolt which just started getting delivered. Nissan will very likely have a 2nd gen Leaf out before the Model 3 as well. These cars will very likely have better quality control and less issues than the Model 3 given GM and Nissan's lengthy history and experience in auto manufacturing.

While I agree with you that Tesla is up on technology, it comes at a cost. The lower priced cars will likely not come with that advanced self-driving technology. After all, the Model S is hi-tech and all, but prohibitively expensive. It's like getting all giddy about the performance of a Nissan GT-R or Ford Raptor. It's certainly impressive, but you're also paying dearly for it.
 #43315  by KuroNekko
 Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:03 pm
Ronzuki wrote:yeah... NO THANKS....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2 ... p-failure/


"Interested in testing a feature that lets Tesla owners unlock and power their car using their smartphone, Ryan Negri decided to leave his keys at home when he went for a drive around the canyon yesterday."

This had less to do with the car and more to do with his phone's lack of cell service. The owner is 100% to blame for deliberately not taking his actual car keys with him and relying on an app... that needs cell network data... in an area without it.


"Negri said he should have taken his keys as a precaution but also criticised Tesla for not having a contingency plan in such cases."

Again, no one to blame but the owner for trying an experiment without a good understanding of how things actually work. The failsafe for this phone app would be for it to not only use cell data, but local (vehicle) wifi or Bluetooth connectivity with the Tesla, however that would be a near redundancy of the actual key fob in function.
The contingency plan is not being an idiot trying to deliberately drive a car without the keys.

:facepalm:
 #43327  by Ronzuki
 Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:21 pm
A car thief's dream...
 #43353  by KuroNekko
 Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:50 am
Ronzuki wrote:A car thief's dream...


It's a vulnerability, but one would need to hack it considerably to defeat it. And of all the automakers, I think Tesla would be at the forefront for making it secure.
That being said, the concern is real as hackers have got into cars like Jeeps and the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV via the vehicle's wireless system and smartphone app, respectively.

However, the cars that get stolen the most are the old-school cars like the mid-nineties Accords. It's not desirability that drives thefts, it's the ease and speed in which a vehicle can be started and driven off. This is especially the case when unsophisticated thieves (like punk-ass kids) are involved.
 #43359  by Ronzuki
 Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:04 pm
There is absolutely nothing that can't be hacked. And who is talking about defeating anything? The best hacks are the ones the get in and stay there undetected to do god knows what, whenever they want. The reasons behind the intrusions are as numerous as the systems out there to be compromised. Ironically, I've just finished reading an Underwriter's Laboratory white paper (some light Sunday afternoon BS) on cyber security (or rather lack thereof) and all of the reasons industrial systems world-wide are vulnerable six ways from Sunday. Sorry to say, but a car is a miniature, critical system as defined in this paper. Any car company that puts this kind of unnecessary technology on the road is just begging to be breached and held hostage by any number of 'players'. I was expecting to read about some credible ideas, at least, towards solutions to this epidemic problem. Instead, the pages offered up instances of critical systems being compromised over the last several years and in many words, simply put, 'we' (the world) have serious problems. No chit. Two of the biggest contributing factors are the use of unverified pieces of third party software embedded in systems programming and more seriously, complete lack of vulnerability testing. I'm shocked (not) since it's been the norm for quite some time there's little to no vetting of anything before it's unveiled. You see, that that takes enormous amounts of time and effort (read costs money) which no one wants to spend or wait for. So what do 'we' keep doing? Exasperating the epidemic by installing more of this non-sense into our everyday lives in places, like automobiles, it has no business in.

I also read in the local paper that PA is going to be a test bed for autonomous vehicles. Swell. Our roads suck for starters and around here specifically, I can hardly wait to see the congestion get even worse because one of those damn cars can't or won't pass a frigging horse and buggy that's half on the road and half off. Wonder how they're going to factor in that horses have minds of their own and they don't always play by the rules.
 #43362  by KuroNekko
 Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:53 pm
Ronzuki wrote:There is absolutely nothing that can't be hacked. And who is talking about defeating anything? The best hacks are the ones the get in and stay there undetected to do god knows what, whenever they want. The reasons behind the intrusions are as numerous as the systems out there to be compromised. Ironically, I've just finished reading an Underwriter's Laboratory white paper (some light Sunday afternoon BS) on cyber security (or rather lack thereof) and all of the reasons industrial systems world-wide are vulnerable six ways from Sunday. Sorry to say, but a car is a miniature, critical system as defined in this paper. Any car company that puts this kind of unnecessary technology on the road is just begging to be breached and held hostage by any number of 'players'. I was expecting to read about some credible ideas, at least, towards solutions to this epidemic problem. Instead, the pages offered up instances of critical systems being compromised over the last several years and in many words, simply put, 'we' (the world) have serious problems. No chit. Two of the biggest contributing factors are the use of unverified pieces of third party software embedded in systems programming and more seriously, complete lack of vulnerability testing. I'm shocked (not) since it's been the norm for quite some time there's little to no vetting of anything before it's unveiled. You see, that that takes enormous amounts of time and effort (read costs money) which no one wants to spend or wait for. So what do 'we' keep doing? Exasperating the epidemic by installing more of this non-sense into our everyday lives in places, like automobiles, it has no business in.

I also read in the local paper that PA is going to be a test bed for autonomous vehicles. Swell. Our roads suck for starters and around here specifically, I can hardly wait to see the congestion get even worse because one of those damn cars can't or won't pass a frigging horse and buggy that's half on the road and half off. Wonder how they're going to factor in that horses have minds of their own and they don't always play by the rules.


I guess this is where you and I fundamentally have a divide in perspective. I actually embrace technology and automation. I certainly see the vulnerabilities but they reduce the risks posed by the weakest link: the actual driver. While many car enthusiasts like us put vehicles and the task of driving as a priority, the vast majority of people don't. A car is a transportation appliance and driving is a chore to simply get to a destination for the vast majority of people on the road. Hence, you have millions of people who don't drive carefully, skillfully, or safely and even worse, don't give a %$^@. Daily, I see people driving without their headlights on in the dark or in the rain. I can't tell you how much I appreciate DRLs given it has literally saved me from intersection accidents because I could actually see the vehicle coming in the darkness.
Turn signals for lane changes? It's like it's optional or something.
Many people buy the new tires they desperately need only when they have the disposable cash rather than the actual need from a loss of safe traction. This is the reality of most drivers.

Given that car accidents pose a huge risk to mortality statistics in just about any advanced nation, I simply have to say that the advancement of vehicle technology is not only good, it's imperative. For young Americans, a car accident is the leading cause of death. Given we are even further distracted by smartphones and their apps, it's come to a point where automation is necessary to save us from ourselves. I'm far less worried about someone hacking my car than some idiot smashing into me because they were Snapchatting while driving. I haven't had my car (or anything) hacked but I have been hit by people on their phones.

Certainly, as vehicle systems become more advanced and computerized, system vulnerabilities will increase. On the contrary, vehicles will also get functionally safer. Hacks like the one you speak of are typically to steal data or monitor transactions. Hence, "The best hacks are the ones the get in and stay there undetected". Well, there's a purpose in that design that doesn't really apply to vehicles but certainly does for other computerized systems. For a vehicle, a hack would be to access it or control it. It's different in purpose from hacking into a user account of some sort to monitor activity or skim fees or personal information. Basically, you'd probably know if your car was hacked. Your whatever account online? Likely not unless the purpose was a significant theft.

Lastly, the statistics already prove up that we need the technology. The safest cars on the road happen to be the most technologically advanced ones. Despite your skepticism of Teslas, their vehicles are in fact the very safest passenger vehicles available. Even other common models that have features like automated braking are rated safer in independent testing. It's actually the older, more primitive vehicles that often pose the highest risks given they give more control to the weakest link that is the driver.

I know we all trust ourselves behind the wheel, but we seldom are the only ones on the road. When you're in a densely populated urban area (like my commute), you see human error as the greatest threat and are reminded of it daily by the accidents that you witness on a regular basis. It takes a skillful and dedicated person to hack a vehicle and deliberately try to manipulate it to compromise your safety. It takes just about nothing for someone to be drunk, high, inattentive, or reckless to kill you on the road. I see the advancement of vehicle technology as being a great boon to minimize the real risk.