LED head light conversion kit discussion

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SamirD
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KuroNekko wrote:Glad you brought this up. After my last post, I did some serious investigation into LED retrofitting for low/high beam headlight purposes and not just DRL use or fancy light strips.

First, let me answer your question of why not HIDs for high beam.
HID are not suitable for high beam because they require a warm up time. All HIDs (factory and aftermarket) pretty much require a warm up for the optimum operating output. If you ever watch a HID turn on, you will see the light get brighter and stronger over about 30 seconds from the initial activation flash. HIDs work by a chemical reaction inside the xenon gas bulb. They are similar to street lamps on roads, but those use argon gas which requires even more time, but they last much longer and are brighter. This is why if you watch street lamps turn on, they take time to get to their operating light output (about a minute or two).
Because HIDs require this warm up time even if it's a mere 20~30 seconds, they are not suited for quick flashing or intermittent use like how high beams are commonly used. HIDs are great for low beams which turn on and stay on for the most part of your trip. High beams are used more temporarily so HIDs are not good as they can be pretty dim when you need them for just a few seconds when they have not warmed up. Cars that do use HIDs for high beams actually have a system called "bi-xenon". Those don't have a separate high beam HID bulb. They merely use the low beam bulb, but it gets tilted up or unshielded for high beam use. Cars that use this system are the ones without a dedicated high beam reflector in the headlight like the 2nd and 3rd generation Mazda3.

However, the very use of high beams makes LEDs optimal. LEDs light up faster and brighter than filament incandescent bulbs like halogen. They are suitable for flashing, long duration, or varying wattage. All these characteristics actually make them the ideal automotive light over HID or incandescent bulbs. They also have a very long lifespan. For these reasons they are the best brake lights.

While OEM LEDs for headlights are making their way more and more into cars, aftermarket kits have not been viable... until now it appears. My research tonight has revealed that finally, there are kits that can perform at roles beyond just DRLs or show use.

I've found this interesting thread on a Subaru Legacy forum regarding the matter.
http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.p ... 08860.html

This kit looks rather promising and is very different from the low wattage, low lumen H7 LED replacement bulbs that merely provide accent lighting.
http://store.ijdmtoy.com/High-Power-COB ... lights.htm

The idea with these high performance LED retrofits is that where a normal halogen bulb would have its filament give off light in the headlight reflector, the LED would do the same. While the implementation is questionable, I'm very interested in the results and may actually buy a kit just out of curiosity.
Many cars these days use either a low beam or high beam bulb as the DRL. Our Kizashis use the high beam bulb at low wattage for the DRL. Changing them to LEDs would give the car that elite LED white color instead of the incandescent "yellow" for DRL use.

I'm thinking about starting a new topic thread on LED H7 bulbs since this thread is originally for someone's bulb failure issues.
You research like me. 8-) You mention how high beams are used to flash and generally not stay on continuously, but I've actually used them continuously before on long night drives. I wonder how the flash works once they're warmed up properly? I know both German cars I've driven with factory HID actually have a halogen high-beam.

So you can see how the LED retrofit market almost mimics where we were with HID retrofits about 10 years back, right? I think the technology will catch up in the next few years. The coolers and heat sinks will be the biggest issues, but so were the ballasts back on the first HID kits.

I'd LOVE to see what you find out Japan has for this. I'm sure there's a few products out there already if Taiwanese and Korean manufacturing are already shipping products.

I didn't realize the DRL use the high beam on the Kizashi--learned something new. 8-) I actually never end up using the DRL since I manually turn the head lights on and off every time. The only time I see the DRL is when I don't do it fast enough and they flash for a second. :lol:

I think it's a little too late to start a new thread. :oops:
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KuroNekko
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SamirD,

I've used my high beams continuously before too as I used to live on a mountain without illuminated roads. However, most people use high beams intermittently and also use them to signal by flashing them. While HIDs can be used as high beams, they aren't the best suited for it. While some people swear that they can flash and still be bright enough when turned on cold, the flashing and intermittent use of HIDs is not good for their ballasts, apparently. There is some debate to this, but from my personal experiences with HIDs, I'd say they need warm up to be useful, especially at the light throw performance needed of a high beam. You can tell that HID systems were not intended for quick bursts of light when needed.
This may be why OEMs like the German luxury cars still use halogens for high beam even when they have HID low beams.
They are now moving to LEDs for everything and Audi appears to lead the way.

However, LED conversion kits would make a decent high beam as they have full brightness immediately upon activation. They also maintain their color at lower wattage for DRL use unlike halogens that get more orange and dim at lower wattage. This is why I'm rather keen on a LED conversion.

Filament bulbs (incandescent light bulbs to halogen bulbs) in general are rather inefficient. They actually generate more heat than light. In fact, the US government is banning incandescent house light bulbs this year. They want consumers to use the much more efficient CFLs or LED bulbs. While I'm no fan of Big Brother dictating things, incandescent bulbs should be made obsolete as they are both inefficient and under-performing compared to alternatives. CFLs are also dirt cheap. Costco and Home Depot regularly sell packs of 6 for under $3. While CFLs can't be dimmed, LEDs can and they last decades and save hundreds of dollars during that time.

Back to cars:
I agree that the LED conversion technology is evolving. There are already "version 2" LED kits that are smaller than their predecessors. I'm curious to see what Japan offers because true JDM lighting products are somewhat hard to find even on the internet. In my last visit there, I even found a HID kit in an auto parts store that had variable wattage for different use (25W dress-up, 35W normal, 55W high performance) controlled by a remote. I've never even heard of that on the internet nor have I seen it sold outside Japan. They also had a huge array of LED bulbs, but more for position bulbs or turn signals and not headlight bulb replacement. However, that was about a year ago so these LED conversion kits could be on the shelves now.

Lastly, murcod moved the discussion here after the discussion of the failed halogen bulbs evolved to the talk of LED conversion kits (I'm to blame).
2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport GTS 6MT (Black)
murcod
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Kuronekko, the high beam gets used a lot by some people. I've done trips out in country areas where you drive for hours with high beam on- only dipping the lights to low beam for oncoming drivers. I've even used in towns/ cities as the street ligthing can often be lacking here in Australia.

"Bixenon" head lights have be out for quite a few years too - I assume that means both low and high beam are HID? Audi have them and I'm sure quite a few other luxury brands do too. By the sound of it there's a shade/filter in front of the high beam which moves out of the way when high beam is required (so negating the warm up time):
On new cars, most xenon-equipped headlights are only offered as a low-beam headlight with a halogen bulb for the high beam. Bi-xenon headlights offer xenon-light output for the low and high beams, and they’re housed in the same headlight capsule/projector.

Bi-xenon headlights typically have a shade or filter in front of the bulb during low-beam operation. When the high-beams are needed, the shade moves out of the way and the bulb’s full-light output is projected onto the road.

Bi-xenon headlights are offered in luxury makes like Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Lexus and Audi.

In general, xenon headlights offer a much brighter light output than standard halogen headlights and are typically identified by their bluish tint. More information on the xenon/high-intensity-discharge headlights can be found here.
David
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KuroNekko
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I'm well aware that people in rural areas use high beams a lot, but the majority of drivers don't. You will almost never use them in an urban/city driving environment at least in the US. They are more used for flashing and that's why HIDs are not well suited for high beam purposes. It's similar to flashlights (Australians call them torches, I recall) and why HID flashlights never took off except in very specific applications like over-sized scuba diving lights. Warm up time is simply not suited for something that needs to illuminate quickly at full power. Incandescent bulbs were the choice until recently. Now LEDs are taking over full force with flashlights given their advantages in battery life and bulb longevity not to mention power (lumens) and output color. I'm a bit of a flashlight nut and have high end flashlights and recently converted my 15 year old Surefire 6P to a LED head. Own one of these and you'd be convinced LEDs are the future of lighting.

Bi-xenon headlights can be found in even non-luxury cars. The example I already mentioned is the 2nd and current generation Mazda3. If you look at the headlight, you will not see a reflector for a high beam. That's because the low and high beam use the same bulb, much like a H4 bulb in older cars like my 1995 Impreza. Mazda also offers factory HIDs in their top-of-the-line Mazda3 so that uses bi-xenon HID.

The setback to bi-xenon is that you don't get additional light as in multiple bulbs working simultaneously. With our cars and others that have a low beam bulb separate from the high beam, BOTH bulbs come on in high beam mode. This allows additional light to illuminate the road instead of the same bulb simply being brighter or tilted upward.

Back to the LED conversion kit: I'm pretty curious and may contact VLEDS to get the dimensions of the bulb. My guess is that it won't fit in the headlight anyways unless you leave the high beam's cap off at the back of the headlight. But perhaps, it may just fit in nicely.
Below is a photo of the high beam housing area to get an idea of the minimal amount of clearance you'd have. While the LED conversion bulb would run wires to a ballast instead of plugging directly into the OEM harness (therefore the harness won't be on the end as pictured with a halogen H7 bulb), I still doubt the heat sink body and attached fan would all fit... but maybe it just might. This uncertainty is the only thing stopping me from ordering this LED conversion kit. I'm going to look into it as I'm rather unhappy with the yellowy dim DRLs and the mediocre performance of the halogens as high beams.

I'm also curious about these "Triton" LED bulbs too. They are conversion kits for brake and turn bulbs and really seem to have the power to outperform even the standard bulbs. Most LED drop-ins of the past were junk and barely illuminated the brake light or turn signal housing. This looks like an entirely different story. Pretty cool as I'm a huge fan of LED brake lights.
http://www.vleds.com/v3-triton/bulb-system.html
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2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport GTS 6MT (Black)
murcod
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Note how the retaining clip works in your picture above - then look at the Vleds. You can also see all the dust accumulated around the head light's sealed cap - there's no way you'd want to not have them sealed.

Those Triton LED's look and sound good (the demo video comparing stock to Triton is below)


But the prices!?
David
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KuroNekko
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Oh, I wouldn't really consider it unless I can put the cap on to seal off the headlight.
I think the bulb retaining clip should fit, but it may be tight with the heat sink. However many bulb housings use a clip so I'm assuming the heat sink's diameter isn't too restrictive or they wouldn't be able to sell many of these kits.

The Tritons are expensive. I'd only get them for tail/brake lights if I was to buy them which is unlikely.
2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport GTS 6MT (Black)
murcod
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Refer back to the pics on the first page of the standard H7 bulb and the VLed. The retaining clip fits in behind the keyed metal flange of the bulb (around the electrical terminals in a recessed area) - I can't see anyway that could possibly work on the VLed? The Vled assembly is a very large diameter behind the keyed metal flange. :?:

It does seem a bit strange, unless the Kizashi uses an unusual type of H7 bulb retainer?
David
SamirD
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KuroNekko wrote:They are now moving to LEDs for everything and Audi appears to lead the way.

However, LED conversion kits would make a decent high beam as they have full brightness immediately upon activation. They also maintain their color at lower wattage for DRL use unlike halogens that get more orange and dim at lower wattage. This is why I'm rather keen on a LED conversion.

Filament bulbs (incandescent light bulbs to halogen bulbs) in general are rather inefficient. They actually generate more heat than light. In fact, the US government is banning incandescent house light bulbs this year. They want consumers to use the much more efficient CFLs or LED bulbs. While I'm no fan of Big Brother dictating things, incandescent bulbs should be made obsolete as they are both inefficient and under-performing compared to alternatives. CFLs are also dirt cheap. Costco and Home Depot regularly sell packs of 6 for under $3. While CFLs can't be dimmed, LEDs can and they last decades and save hundreds of dollars during that time.

Back to cars:
I agree that the LED conversion technology is evolving. There are already "version 2" LED kits that are smaller than their predecessors. I'm curious to see what Japan offers because true JDM lighting products are somewhat hard to find even on the internet. In my last visit there, I even found a HID kit in an auto parts store that had variable wattage for different use (25W dress-up, 35W normal, 55W high performance) controlled by a remote. I've never even heard of that on the internet nor have I seen it sold outside Japan. They also had a huge array of LED bulbs, but more for position bulbs or turn signals and not headlight bulb replacement. However, that was about a year ago so these LED conversion kits could be on the shelves now.

Lastly, murcod moved the discussion here after the discussion of the failed halogen bulbs evolved to the talk of LED conversion kits (I'm to blame).
Audi has definitely led the LED headlight revolution. Their daytime running light feature from the r8 has now made it on to all sorts of cars, including the Kizashi on the homepage of this site. :lol:

I definitely like the idea of consistant light color with variable wattages. I was kind of wondering what that yellowish-orange light was from the DRL's on the Kizashi before this discussion. 8-)

While filament bulbs (and especially halogens) produce a lot of heat in relation to their light output, they don't have some of the inherit disposal issues that CFLs have. I don't see consumers changing the way they throw away bulbs, and all that Mercury is going to go somewhere. :?

And the incentives for CFL conversion are definitely here. Sam's club here in MKE had a special where an 8-pack of GE 13w CFLs was only 98 cents. That's cheaper than one regular light bulb. Plus, the cost of regular bulbs has shot up tremendously. PAR30 bulbs like what are used in recessed can lights can go for as much as $10 each! I actually have a box of these on sale on craigslist from when I retrofitted my parents house with CFLs as there are certain applications (mainly dimming) that still need the filament style bulbs. There are actually dimmable CFLs, and they used to be a premium cost-wise, but now they're much more reasonable. There's two types--one that uses a special dimmer, and another that uses special ballasts inside the bulbs so they work with all existing dimmers. The light color does change a bit when dimming, and the dimming isn't as flexible, but it does the job quite nicely.

You description of what's available in the JDM market makes me want to go to Japan more than ever. There's so many JDM things I'd like to buy. I had a really nice stainless steel nail cutter I bought from a store in SF Japantown many years back that my wife lost. :( It was the best nail cutter ever!

I guess we did get our own thread. :lol: But I would've done the same thread split as there was a lot of good discussion on this topic. 8-)
SamirD
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KuroNekko wrote:I'm a bit of a flashlight nut and have high end flashlights and recently converted my 15 year old Surefire 6P to a LED head. Own one of these and you'd be convinced LEDs are the future of lighting.

The setback to bi-xenon is that you don't get additional light as in multiple bulbs working simultaneously. With our cars and others that have a low beam bulb separate from the high beam, BOTH bulbs come on in high beam mode. This allows additional light to illuminate the road instead of the same bulb simply being brighter or tilted upward.

Back to the LED conversion kit: I'm pretty curious and may contact VLEDS to get the dimensions of the bulb. My guess is that it won't fit in the headlight anyways unless you leave the high beam's cap off at the back of the headlight. But perhaps, it may just fit in nicely.
Below is a photo of the high beam housing area to get an idea of the minimal amount of clearance you'd have. While the LED conversion bulb would run wires to a ballast instead of plugging directly into the OEM harness (therefore the harness won't be on the end as pictured with a halogen H7 bulb), I still doubt the heat sink body and attached fan would all fit... but maybe it just might. This uncertainty is the only thing stopping me from ordering this LED conversion kit. I'm going to look into it as I'm rather unhappy with the yellowy dim DRLs and the mediocre performance of the halogens as high beams.

I'm also curious about these "Triton" LED bulbs too. They are conversion kits for brake and turn bulbs and really seem to have the power to outperform even the standard bulbs. Most LED drop-ins of the past were junk and barely illuminated the brake light or turn signal housing. This looks like an entirely different story. Pretty cool as I'm a huge fan of LED brake lights.
http://www.vleds.com/v3-triton/bulb-system.html
I love a good flashlight even though I don't have one here in MKE. My best was an original Maglight 6d battery baton. I actually found it somewhere I can remember, and used it for years, but forgot it one night helping a friend with a flat ture. When I went back, it was gone. :( I guess it went to fulfil its destiny.

What would you recommend for a solid flashlight that can help when working on a car? That's primarily when I need one.

Only some cars actually power on the high-beam while the low beam is still on. Many cars will switch to only the high beam bulb. My Altima will switch as well as my Accord, but my Galant will power both. It varies. And depending on the reflector, the light can still be seen close as well as far.

I can't wait to hear more on your research on the LEDs. I know bulbs will burn out, and the second they do, LEDs to the rescue! 8-)
SamirD
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murcod wrote:Refer back to the pics on the first page of the standard H7 bulb and the VLed. The retaining clip fits in behind the keyed metal flange of the bulb (around the electrical terminals in a recessed area) - I can't see anyway that could possibly work on the VLed? The Vled assembly is a very large diameter behind the keyed metal flange. :?:

It does seem a bit strange, unless the Kizashi uses an unusual type of H7 bulb retainer?
I think these photos must be some sort of representation of the product and not the actual product as most cars that have a clip wouldn't work with these.
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