I totally disagree. All the new Fords look horrible with their stolen Aston Martin grilles. Chevy seems to be coming around with the new Corvette and a diesel Cruze. Toyota and Honda have always been "yawn" - the only way for Mazda and Nissan to sell cars is for them to stand out and hopefully hit with the "want something different" crowd
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2015 Chrysler 200
The Cruze, Sonic, and Spark are all Daewoos. The GMs sold in the US that are Holdens are the 4 door V8 sedans. The late Pontiac G8 and the new Chevy SS are basically badge-engineered Holdens. Both were/are even made Down Under.
Both South Korean Daewoo and Australian Holden are subsidiaries of General Motors.
In fact, had Suzuki remained under GM, they would have never made the Kizashi and the Cruze would have filled its spot. The Asian Cruze predated the Chevy Cruze that we know in the US market and was even sold as a Suzuki Cruze in its previous generations in other markets.
All that being said, I'd take a Ford over any of these compacts from GM. The Focus and Fiesta are arguably better than the Cruze and Sonic. They are more critically acclaimed and they also have ST versions which are said to be awesome.
I'm also going to disagree that domestics still suck. They have made strides in the last few years and released some very impressive products. I personally think some import brands are the ones that are resting on their laurels or going about a cheap way to make profit.
From Chrysler: the 300, the new 200, the Jeep Grand Cherokee, Dodge Durango, and Ram are some examples of fine vehicles that are much better than their previous versions. In fact, I personally think they have the best interiors among domestics now. They used to be crap 15 years ago and now they are spectacular.
Ford has turned it around with the Fusion, Focus, Explorer, and Escape. They have not lost their touch on the Mustang and the F150. I also think Fords look pretty good but that's personal opinion.
GM has given us the new Corvette and the Impala which are both highly acclaimed. The Cruze is also said to be the best compact GM ever offered; a vast improvement over the Cavalier and Cobalt. Cadillac has enjoyed a brand rebirth and is seriously creating cars that can keep up with BMW like the new ATS and the new CTS. They are no longer your grandpa's car.
The Big 3 from Detroit felt the spur of near death in 2008 and have created good products since.
Meanwhile, Toyota has offered the same crap for a while. Even their new models are not doing great in crash tests. They are also skimping on new technology and putting the same engines and transmissions in their newly designed sheet metal. A good example is the new Corolla and 4Runner. Looks new, but the engine and transmission are carry-overs from previous generations.
VW is a disaster. They are so infatuated with being the global sales leader that they are deliberately letting quality go to offer lower prices to drive up sales. Their new Jetta and Passat are cheaper versions of the cars they replaced. Even the venerable Golf is now going to be built in Mexico. This is all pathetic given VW makes some of the worst cars there are in terms of reliability.
The German luxury marques are all chasing the dollar by releasing new cheaper entry-level models like the CLA, A3, and the 2 Series. They are trying to get people who would not have considered their brands to buy their cheaper models. The problem is that these are really overpriced borderline economy cars. Save for the BMW 2 Series, the CLA and A3 are really FWD 4-bangers.
They appeal to people who are more interested in the brand image than the car itself. They want to drive a Mercedes so they get a CLA regardless of that fact that it's a shitty car merely wearing the Mercedes badge.
While I think smaller Asian brands are making strides, the bigger ones are going about things in an unappealing way. Toyota is still stagnant, Honda cut out exciting products in favor of appliance-like vehicles, and Nissan is putting their shitty CVTs in everything. In comparison, the American brands are simply more appealing now.
The only Japanese cars I'd want to buy now are Mazdas or Subarus.
Both South Korean Daewoo and Australian Holden are subsidiaries of General Motors.
In fact, had Suzuki remained under GM, they would have never made the Kizashi and the Cruze would have filled its spot. The Asian Cruze predated the Chevy Cruze that we know in the US market and was even sold as a Suzuki Cruze in its previous generations in other markets.
All that being said, I'd take a Ford over any of these compacts from GM. The Focus and Fiesta are arguably better than the Cruze and Sonic. They are more critically acclaimed and they also have ST versions which are said to be awesome.
I'm also going to disagree that domestics still suck. They have made strides in the last few years and released some very impressive products. I personally think some import brands are the ones that are resting on their laurels or going about a cheap way to make profit.
From Chrysler: the 300, the new 200, the Jeep Grand Cherokee, Dodge Durango, and Ram are some examples of fine vehicles that are much better than their previous versions. In fact, I personally think they have the best interiors among domestics now. They used to be crap 15 years ago and now they are spectacular.
Ford has turned it around with the Fusion, Focus, Explorer, and Escape. They have not lost their touch on the Mustang and the F150. I also think Fords look pretty good but that's personal opinion.
GM has given us the new Corvette and the Impala which are both highly acclaimed. The Cruze is also said to be the best compact GM ever offered; a vast improvement over the Cavalier and Cobalt. Cadillac has enjoyed a brand rebirth and is seriously creating cars that can keep up with BMW like the new ATS and the new CTS. They are no longer your grandpa's car.
The Big 3 from Detroit felt the spur of near death in 2008 and have created good products since.
Meanwhile, Toyota has offered the same crap for a while. Even their new models are not doing great in crash tests. They are also skimping on new technology and putting the same engines and transmissions in their newly designed sheet metal. A good example is the new Corolla and 4Runner. Looks new, but the engine and transmission are carry-overs from previous generations.
VW is a disaster. They are so infatuated with being the global sales leader that they are deliberately letting quality go to offer lower prices to drive up sales. Their new Jetta and Passat are cheaper versions of the cars they replaced. Even the venerable Golf is now going to be built in Mexico. This is all pathetic given VW makes some of the worst cars there are in terms of reliability.
The German luxury marques are all chasing the dollar by releasing new cheaper entry-level models like the CLA, A3, and the 2 Series. They are trying to get people who would not have considered their brands to buy their cheaper models. The problem is that these are really overpriced borderline economy cars. Save for the BMW 2 Series, the CLA and A3 are really FWD 4-bangers.
They appeal to people who are more interested in the brand image than the car itself. They want to drive a Mercedes so they get a CLA regardless of that fact that it's a shitty car merely wearing the Mercedes badge.
While I think smaller Asian brands are making strides, the bigger ones are going about things in an unappealing way. Toyota is still stagnant, Honda cut out exciting products in favor of appliance-like vehicles, and Nissan is putting their shitty CVTs in everything. In comparison, the American brands are simply more appealing now.
The only Japanese cars I'd want to buy now are Mazdas or Subarus.
2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport GTS 6MT (Black)
I think everyone finally understands the US market with the Japanese makes not making 200k cars anymore, but 100k, and the domestic makes now made for 100k vs 75k. So everyone is aiming for the same profitability 'sweet spot'.KuroNekko wrote:They have made strides in the last few years and released some very impressive products. I personally think some import brands are the ones that are resting on their laurels or going about a cheap way to make profit.
But what this means is basically domestics are better, and as you mentioned, Japanese quality is slipping. What this is leaving open is a door to the next big competitior because it is quality that either made or broke the reputation of every single manufacturer, import or domestic.
I don't agree about the 100K/200K or the 75K/100K. In fact, nearly all cars are lasting longer than before. Stats are showing Americans are driving their cars for longer than ever. I think it's both a factor of economic hardship but also the fact that cars are holding up longer. Tighter tolerances and better manufacturing account for improvements in reliability and durability all around.SamirD wrote:I think everyone finally understands the US market with the Japanese makes not making 200k cars anymore, but 100k, and the domestic makes now made for 100k vs 75k. So everyone is aiming for the same profitability 'sweet spot'.KuroNekko wrote:They have made strides in the last few years and released some very impressive products. I personally think some import brands are the ones that are resting on their laurels or going about a cheap way to make profit.
But what this means is basically domestics are better, and as you mentioned, Japanese quality is slipping. What this is leaving open is a door to the next big competitior because it is quality that either made or broke the reputation of every single manufacturer, import or domestic.
My point was more R&D rather than quality or longevity. I have no doubt the Toyota Corolla is a reliable compact car that will last a long time. However, my gripe is that it's running on an engine and transmission from several years ago meanwhile rivals like Mazda have overhauled their line-up with all new technology. It's not saying Toyotas are poor quality or won't last as long, but it's that they are complacent.
In the end, longevity is most dependent on maintenance. How you take care of a car matters more than what you drive.
2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport GTS 6MT (Black)
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sx4rocious
- Posts: 485
- Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:31 pm
there is a lot of truth to what you are saying. i do believe that domestic cars are light years ahead of where they were just a few years ago. However, for the most part, they are still rather boring and mundane compared to the Asian and German counterparts. It simply goes to show you how far behind American cars fell in the past few years.
I do like the new Cruise. I have a friend that bought one and he loves it. It seems to be MUUUUUCH better made than any cobalt or Cavalier I've ever been in. I don't particularly like the new Focus, but I have to admit that the ST model does make me salivate a bit.
My point is rather simple. The things I like in a drive (the metallic and mechanical feel of a PROPER manual shifter, the rush of a GOOD throttle, responsive steering, etc...) you really have a hard time finding in a domestic. Most cars are reliable if you take care of them, but few truly make you want to pay the painful price at the pump just to drive the long way out to the next town just for a gallon of milk. My Suzuki's do that for me know. NONE of the Fords, GMs, or absolutely ZERO Chrysler products I have ever owned made me want to take a drive just to take a drive. In fact, I was embarassed to be seen in any Chrysler product I have ever owned... LOL
I do like the new Cruise. I have a friend that bought one and he loves it. It seems to be MUUUUUCH better made than any cobalt or Cavalier I've ever been in. I don't particularly like the new Focus, but I have to admit that the ST model does make me salivate a bit.
My point is rather simple. The things I like in a drive (the metallic and mechanical feel of a PROPER manual shifter, the rush of a GOOD throttle, responsive steering, etc...) you really have a hard time finding in a domestic. Most cars are reliable if you take care of them, but few truly make you want to pay the painful price at the pump just to drive the long way out to the next town just for a gallon of milk. My Suzuki's do that for me know. NONE of the Fords, GMs, or absolutely ZERO Chrysler products I have ever owned made me want to take a drive just to take a drive. In fact, I was embarassed to be seen in any Chrysler product I have ever owned... LOL
Tell that to all the CB7 and CD5 Accord owners out there that have just changed oil for 250k+ miles and they won't believe you.KuroNekko wrote:In the end, longevity is most dependent on maintenance. How you take care of a car matters more than what you drive.
Innovation has its place, but if something isn't broken, why fix it? I mean, we all have discussed how the Kizashi might have been a lot more fun (faster) and more reliable with a traditional automatic. If something works well, a huge overhaul won't happen, but instead there will be little and subtle changes that fine tune it until something truly revolutionary comes along. Isn't that the 'relentless pursuit of perfection' that Lexus used to brag about?
I'd love someone to make a car that was designed to work for 400k miles with just regular maintenance. Sure it might be more expensive, but quality has a price. And I'm sure there's a market for it. To some of us, cars aren't meant to be replaceable like lightbulbs.
Some of styling in cars has gotten to the point it's like the fashion industry where there's hot 'trends' that come and go. I believe in things a little more timeless, so the trendy, shiny, whiz-bangery stuff just screams 'fluff' to me.sx4rocious wrote:However, for the most part, they are still rather boring and mundane compared to the Asian and German counterparts. It simply goes to show you how far behind American cars fell in the past few years.
...made me want to take a drive just to take a drive.
It's why I found the Audi A8's interior refreshing when I reviewed it a few years ago when compared to the BMW and Mercedes ones of the time that required reading a manual in order to use. And look where Audi is now.
To me, a car is a great when it makes you want to drive when you have absolutely no where to go.
Honda Accords are better than average. So are, or I should rather say were, Toyota Camrys. However, there are cars from all brands that have insane mileage. I have read about cars with over 500,000 miles and they were from Mazda, Toyota, BMW, Volvo, Ford, and Chevy. Pretty much a good sample of Japanese, European, and American cars. However, the thing they all had in common was that they ran synthetic oil and the owner was meticulous about maintenance.SamirD wrote:Tell that to all the CB7 and CD5 Accord owners out there that have just changed oil for 250k+ miles and they won't believe you.KuroNekko wrote:In the end, longevity is most dependent on maintenance. How you take care of a car matters more than what you drive.
Innovation has its place, but if something isn't broken, why fix it? I mean, we all have discussed how the Kizashi might have been a lot more fun (faster) and more reliable with a traditional automatic. If something works well, a huge overhaul won't happen, but instead there will be little and subtle changes that fine tune it until something truly revolutionary comes along. Isn't that the 'relentless pursuit of perfection' that Lexus used to brag about?
I'd love someone to make a car that was designed to work for 400k miles with just regular maintenance. Sure it might be more expensive, but quality has a price. And I'm sure there's a market for it. To some of us, cars aren't meant to be replaceable like lightbulbs.
I have no doubts that some cars are better engineered and built than others, however, ownership care matters most in my opinion.
Also, there are cars that last 400k with little more than maintenance. My nomination would go to the Toyota Land Cruiser with a diesel engine. From Antarctica to Africa, these Toyota Land Cruisers are trusted for their reliability and capability. Even their gas version are rock-solid and a recent study I read listed them as the most reliable, problem-free vehicles in the US from owner surveys. They only sell gas versions in the US.
Mercedes-Benz is known for long lasting diesels too. Nearly all the 70's Mercs still running are Mercedes turbo diesels. A guy in my neighborhood collects them and has 3 or 4 of them in great condition.
A German couple toured the world in their diesel Mercedes-Benz G Wagon. It now sits in a Mercedes museum with over 500,000 miles on it.
http://jalopnik.com/5929390/this-couple ... -the-world
As you stated, these cars like the Land Cruiser and G Wagon aren't cheap, but they have the quality and durability to outlast a number of cars back to back.
2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport GTS 6MT (Black)
Accords used to be better than average imo. The modern day versions feel gimmicky and not as well built to me. Those 1988 Camrys are no joke though. I still see several in MKE regularly.KuroNekko wrote:Honda Accords are better than average. So are, or I should rather say were, Toyota Camrys. However, there are cars from all brands that have insane mileage. I have read about cars with over 500,000 miles and they were from Mazda, Toyota, BMW, Volvo, Ford, and Chevy. Pretty much a good sample of Japanese, European, and American cars. However, the thing they all had in common was that they ran synthetic oil and the owner was meticulous about maintenance.
I have no doubts that some cars are better engineered and built than others, however, ownership care matters most in my opinion.
Also, there are cars that last 400k with little more than maintenance. My nomination would go to the Toyota Land Cruiser with a diesel engine. From Antarctica to Africa, these Toyota Land Cruisers are trusted for their reliability and capability. Even their gas version are rock-solid and a recent study I read listed them as the most reliable, problem-free vehicles in the US from owner surveys. They only sell gas versions in the US.
Mercedes-Benz is known for long lasting diesels too. Nearly all the 70's Mercs still running are Mercedes turbo diesels. A guy in my neighborhood collects them and has 3 or 4 of them in great condition.
A German couple toured the world in their diesel Mercedes-Benz G Wagon. It now sits in a Mercedes museum with over 500,000 miles on it.
http://jalopnik.com/5929390/this-couple ... -the-world
As you stated, these cars like the Land Cruiser and G Wagon aren't cheap, but they have the quality and durability to outlast a number of cars back to back.
But I have to disagree with you on the maintenance. There are several CD5 Accords that I see daily that have definitely had hard lives--but they still live on, and I'm sure with over 200k on the clock.
It's unfortunate that the only way to recognize a superiorly built car is after the test of time. I don't see any 2000 car lasting into 2020 with the same type of reliability that the cars of yesteryear have proven. Hence my idea of a ground-up car built simply for long-term reliability, even at a price.
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sx4rocious
- Posts: 485
- Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:31 pm
I have a friend that drives only Toyota products. He now owns a Scion TC (a 2007 I think) and a 2012 Toyota Corolla S. He really started his love for Toyota products with a 1988 Camry he was given when he was in his early 20's. We actively tried to destroy this car with everything we could think of much the way Top Gear tried to destroy the Hilux pickup about season 4 of the British show. We made several near-oil-free 100+ mile trips to the next state at more than just a bit above the speed limit. We had it airborn several times. We even took a long curve about 40mph faster than we should have in the winter and ramped a ditch with it. The point to the story is that we COULD NOT DESTROY this car no matter what we did. He eventually fell in love with the car and began to meticulously maintain and care for it. I remember him even disassembling the entire interior panel just to clean it. It took him SEVERAL hours. He even states the new Toyota products he owns are nothing in comparison to the quality of the 88 he was given with over 200K on it...