Autonomous Vehicles NOT Ready for Prime-Time

Non-Suzuki related topics. Anything can go here.
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KuroNekko
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I agree that there are risks and vulnerabilities. I agree that some "professionals" aren't doing their jobs well. However, the motives of hacking a credit agency are quite different from hacking autonomous vehicles.
It's also apparent that you and I have very different concerns regarding the technology vs. the status quo. You are concerned about hacking, system failures, flaws, errors, and other issues which would make us vulnerable. I understand your focal point on these issues given your background and experiences. These are all important issues. However, I am looking at the status quo as it applies now with the rate of accidents, deaths, DUIs, traffic jams, etc. and can only imagine autonomous vehicles to offer a safer and more efficient mode of commuting. Having personally spent a decade commuting in some of the worse traffic in America in the region with the highest rates of accidents, I don't have much faith in humans being better drivers. In your earlier comment about the personal joy of driving home after work, I couldn't relate. My commutes were a personal hell often taking an hour to drive 15 miles. I've also assisted in the investigation of vehicular homicide cases in which it was evident there was no intent but the driver was in no state to drive. Completely innocent lives snuffed out.
Cheaper gas prices have also spiked the death toll from auto accidents as more people are driving more often. This proves that despite safer cars than ever, the increase of human drivers is the variable most responsible for accidents and deaths.
There are certainly risks with the future of automation, but I truly believe it can't get any worse than it is now.
2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport GTS 6MT (Black)
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Ronzuki
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KuroNekko wrote:However, the motives of hacking a credit agency are quite different from hacking autonomous vehicles.
It's also apparent that you and I have very different concerns regarding the technology vs. the status quo.
Yeah...beg to differ, please remove blinders....the motives are EXACTLY the same:

"Dear xyz Motor Co.,
Unless you pay $xxx by xx date, we will cause a N. American disruption and shutdown your vehicles. Thank you and have an A1 day!"

Sincerely,
Your not-so-friendly anonymous hack from anywhere on the globe"

That would be if they were so inclined and stupid enough to provide warning...not very likely. They'll demand the ransom immediately after the disruption.

These are real-world problems we face, today, every day, right now, that no one is capable of eliminating. My head spins with the constant barrage of BS I have to deal with in my little corner of the industrial world alone. I do not want, or need, any of this aggravation as part of the rest of my existence.

I also do not subscribe to the idea of giving up my liberties and freedoms for the sake of a false sense of security either. On top of the hacking reality, this is the larger problem in my mind. The BS notion of attaching the "all about safety" moniker to autonomous vehicles, vehicles that I will be forced to pay for, own and need to rely upon. It will not be an option to simply say 'no thanks, don't want it' and THIS is what's pissing me off.

Unless the blinders are removed and this nifty techno BS is exposed for what it really is, well then, we're going to have it rammed down our throats like it or not. It'll eventually come to light that it wasn't such a hot idea after all when it's far too late to reverse course.
Last edited by Ronzuki on Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Ron

2010 Kizashi GTS, CVT, iAWD (3/10 build date)
2011 SX4 Premium Hatch, CVT, iAWD (12/10 build date)
2018 Mazda CX-5 iAWD Touring
2014 Wrangler JKUW (GONE, traded :D :D )
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Ronzuki
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Ironically (not really)...this just in my email:

Dear TwinCAT users,

Microsoft is offering new patches for the actual security incident called “Meltdown” and “Spectre” – in addition to the patches from begin of January these target 32bit systems.

According to tests in our software lab, there may be the same compatibility issue between the actual Microsoft patch and TwinCAT 2/3 32bit like for the 64bit. This compatibility issue is not an isolated incident for TwinCAT alone; also, other high performance software programs like Virus Scanner software are experiencing compatibility issues. Microsoft and Intel strongly recommend not to download and activate the patch before the software providers are declaring compatibility.
In addition Microsoft introduced a registry based command for switching off or on the feature “Kernel VA shadow” which is the base of the patch.

The engineering workbench of TwinCAT operating in “config mode” is not affected. As well not affected are all systems based on Windows Embedded Compact (CE).

Almost all Beckhoff IPC with an operating system delivered by Beckhoff are configured with a deactivated “Windows System Update Service” (the security updates are available through periodic image updates pre-validated by Beckhoff). As long as this setting has not been changed and no manual download of the patch has been done, there is no issue to expect for TwinCAT 2/3 systems. Please check your system configuration on your development PC`s and on the PC`s of your runtime applications.

For TwinCAT 2/3 systems on Windows 7 / 10 operating systems with activated “Windows System Update Service” or with a manual download of the patch we strongly recommend users follow the instructions in this document.

Beckhoff is working intensely on a solution for the mentioned compatibility issue – for 64bit systems we developed a patch, which is currently tested by system tests – and 32bit systems are now to be evaluated.

Please do not hesitate to contact your local Beckhoff support team for answers to your questions.

Beckhoff Security Incident Team

BECKHOFF Automation LLC


They're working INTENSELY on a solution...doesn't help me with the problem, which is not of my creation, one damn bit. And who by the way is the they?? Beckhoff? Microsoft? The hardware Manufacturers? The anti virus software Companies?? hmmmm... alas, the lawyers to sort it all out! The solution they need to intensely work on is to completely divest themselves from Microsoft, the way it used to be (and far more reliable)...because...Microsoft has NO BUSINESS operating in the industrial world. But alas as I'd mentioned, too late for that now. No going back. We lovingly refer to this as "progress" around here. Microsoft does not understand the world of industrial control, to this day. We predicted these issues 15 years ago when all the industrial control manufacturers began swallowing the Koolaid. And now here we are. I get this kind of garbage nearly daily anymore. You'll take notice they aren't offering to reimburse me/us for our time and energy wasted bringing these 'issues' to their attention. My customer could give a crap that this kind of thing is causing the delays they're not currently happy about and have no stomach to pay me anymore to deal with it. I guess I'll just deliver and hopey that it'll changey all on its own then aye?

And you really think this kind of crap isn't going to occur with the automated vehicles you want to rely upon for your daily existence???? :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: :roll: :roll: :!: :!:
Silly un-educated consumer you.
Ron

2010 Kizashi GTS, CVT, iAWD (3/10 build date)
2011 SX4 Premium Hatch, CVT, iAWD (12/10 build date)
2018 Mazda CX-5 iAWD Touring
2014 Wrangler JKUW (GONE, traded :D :D )
1991 Samurai, 5-Speed, EFI, Soft-Top ( :| sold)
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KuroNekko
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See, we are arguing different things. You are concerned with the vulnerabilities of technology and that's totally legitimate. However, you have from the very beginning failed to even address the status quo of tens of thousands of people dying in car accidents from human error or negligence. Your perspective is so concerned with the possible detrimental future of automation that you fail to see or address how truly awful things are today. In fact, I'd even say conditioned to accept the costs as normal. For Americans under the age of 45, car accidents are a top 5 cause of death and the leading reason for those aged 15 to 24. That's the status quo, yet some choose to fear the possibilities of a future even more. It's like when Teslas catch on fire and people get on their soap box regarding the dangers of lithium ion batteries, all while carrying one in their pocket at all times. They also seem to forget or completely negate that fossil fuels are even more flammable and burn property and people much more often. But this isn't new. A Tesla fire? Now that's news to sensationalize and heed a warning of the dangerous future! It's more than ironic.

As for hacking, you're actually wrong. The majority of hacking is done to steal information and not for ransom. Ransoms would make tracing the attack and those culpable much easier to determine for authorities. The majority of hacks are done silently and the victims don't even realize until much later, if ever. While I won't say there isn't a vulnerability of a terrorist taking control of an automated vehicle, the realistic threat would be the theft of information. For hackers, information is money and power.

All that being said, I think it's our outlook on the future that differ more than anything. I actually don't want an automated vehicle anytime soon. It's just that I want the drunk, the Snapchatter, and the primping woman behind the wheel to be driven rather than driving so I and others can be safer on the road. The reality is that technology will give us choices which aren't available right now and I define choice as freedom. As much as you want the freedom to be in control and drive (I do too), I want the freedom to be safe from those who endanger others in a leading cause of death. I also know that the implementation and shift will be gradual. It will take decades for consumers to get weened off fossil fuels and switch to EVs. It will also take decades for consumers to switch from conventional vehicles to those with automated driving technology. I really don't think it will be a drastic change in which consumers will be left without a choice and vulnerable. I actually think it will get to a point where the vast majority of consumers will choose the technology. Horses are less complicated than cars and many people argued there was no need for machine vehicles when the horse and buggy were reliably available. We all know that wasn't favored over time.
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Ronzuki
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hahaha....and it begins...not like a $50k vehicle is cheap aye?. Pushing updates via satellite...what could go wrong? Plenty. If at first you don't succeed....keep sending software updates.

http://www.off-road.com/blog/2018/02/20 ... om20180226

Whole lotta 'maybes', 'possiblys', 'shoulds' and general 'don't have a frigging clue' being tossed around. Even some subtle finger-pointing and 'passing the buck blame game' being insinuated. Twitter? Seriously?...for cryining out loud, this is how automotive problems will get resolved?
Ron

2010 Kizashi GTS, CVT, iAWD (3/10 build date)
2011 SX4 Premium Hatch, CVT, iAWD (12/10 build date)
2018 Mazda CX-5 iAWD Touring
2014 Wrangler JKUW (GONE, traded :D :D )
1991 Samurai, 5-Speed, EFI, Soft-Top ( :| sold)
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Woodie
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HAH! That's just great!

Fiat, Jeep, Chrysler; three names known for poor reliability. Mix them all together and expecting anything to work is just folly. The stench of failure is so strong on these three that even Mercedes was dragged down into the filth when they got involved.
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Ronzuki
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Brands...FCA, Ford, Chevy, the Asian brands, the European brands...they're all deep into putting forth the same non-sense in their products that has no bearing on a vehicle completing the basic task of transporting (the bare essence)...and this, the monumental part...at a price-point the average Joe can afford to purchase, maintain AND keep on the road, getting oneself from point A to point B as reliably and economically as possible (again for the average Joe).

Seemingly 'better' brands will simply cover it up differently, spin the failures more eloquently, convincing users it's normal (oh and btw, pay me) what ever. They'll all continue pushing out fixes under the guise of 'improvements' and deploying new tech while abandoning completely resolving past problems, dragging owners along...moving forward at the speed of light. The Cycle: get fed-up, trade-in and purchase the newest over-priced 4-wheeled techno marvel with all of the latest and greatest....problems that is.

Point being, this is exactly what incomplete testing of automation such as this yields: expense, aggravation, disappointment, anger and yes, to an extent, chaos. This cycle is nothing new in the industrial world and will not be any different in mainstream everyday vehicle automation. Everyone seems to believe, for some unknown reason (blindly perhaps), the automotive industry is, or will be, somehow immune to the vast problems we in the industrial arena have seen increasing for the last 15-20 years. Problematic hardware and software eventually dies a slow death once the players in the industry have had enough. The sales and use of said garbage falls off only to be replaced with 'better' and 'improved' which has also been released long before it should have been. Patches and fixes (aka Band-Aids) ensue, and the cycle continues. I know my personal finances can't absorb these cycles.

Just because ya can, doesn't mean ya should. The 'new' wranglers don't need keys, all have a screen in the dash, the gov mandated csare-bags, the gov mandated back-up camera and a host of other 'features' that are utterly preposterous to even be offered in a utilitarian vehicle. And it sure as hell no longer carries anywhere near a utilitarian price tag.
Ron

2010 Kizashi GTS, CVT, iAWD (3/10 build date)
2011 SX4 Premium Hatch, CVT, iAWD (12/10 build date)
2018 Mazda CX-5 iAWD Touring
2014 Wrangler JKUW (GONE, traded :D :D )
1991 Samurai, 5-Speed, EFI, Soft-Top ( :| sold)
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Ronzuki
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I meant to mention Kuro...

The Amish around here are pretty fond of their horses and buggies! :lol:
Ron

2010 Kizashi GTS, CVT, iAWD (3/10 build date)
2011 SX4 Premium Hatch, CVT, iAWD (12/10 build date)
2018 Mazda CX-5 iAWD Touring
2014 Wrangler JKUW (GONE, traded :D :D )
1991 Samurai, 5-Speed, EFI, Soft-Top ( :| sold)
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KuroNekko
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Yes, added costs and complexities are annoying. Over-connected technologies in vehicles do seem and may be detrimental. However, let's not negate why modern vehicles "all have a screen in the dash, the gov mandated csare-bags, the gov mandated back-up camera and a host of other 'features'". It's because people just keep getting themselves or others injured or killed.

For starters, people just seem to have a very hard time with seat belts. The police have to enforce laws to keep people from preventable risk of injury or death to themselves. While I'm sure some would advocate "Darwinism", the reality is that these injuries and deaths drive up health care costs and hospitals lose a lot of money treating stupidity. In a public hospital, that means a lot of tax payer money. If the government can take measures to reduce the costs, they will and they have.

Airbags were invented to help mitigate injuries, especially for those who weren't belted in. They protect better when belted in, but they are designed to literally cushion the blow between the body and the vehicle's interior. Despite the highly effective nature of seat belts in preventing death and injuries, people weren't so into them so automakers had to implement a device to make car accidents even more survivable. Not sure about you, but I like being in a "safe" car which means I will more likely come out alive. I certainly looked at the Kizashi's safety ratings and crash tests before deciding to get one and its IIHS Top Safety Pick Plus (highest) rating wasn't something that made me curse its eight airbags.

The reason why vehicles now have cameras is similar. People just can't seem to look in the direction their vehicles are moving in much like belting themselves in. Countless small children have been run over and killed... most often by their own guardians. The blame was then placed on the vehicles as parents who ran over their own kids in the driveway claimed they just couldn't see them. Tears and testimonies then took the form of legislation and automakers again were forced to put in technology to save people from themselves. However, a camera is useless without a screen so a back-up camera necessitated a screen in a car.

So that's why new cars "all have a screen in the dash, the gov mandated csare-bags, the gov mandated back-up camera and a host of other 'features'". I know your argument was in the scope of the Jeep Wrangler but the reality is that it's a popular passenger vehicle. Regardless of the design or capabilities, the vast majority of Wranglers will not go offroad. They will be driven like Corollas so might as well treat them as such with regulations and standards.
Ronzuki wrote:I meant to mention Kuro...
The Amish around here are pretty fond of their horses and buggies! :lol:


I'm sure they are but most people live with the times.
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Woodie
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KuroNekko wrote:For starters, people just seem to have a very hard time with seat belts. The police have to enforce laws to keep people from preventable risk of injury or death to themselves. While I'm sure some would advocate "Darwinism", the reality is that these injuries and deaths drive up health care costs and hospitals lose a lot of money treating stupidity. In a public hospital, that means a lot of tax payer money. If the government can take measures to reduce the costs, they will and they have.
Yes, put me firmly in the Darwinism camp. I also don't believe the medical costs should be passed along. Poof! There goes the phony justification for why the government has jurisdiction.

The cost of all of this nannying is staggering. Get into a minor fender bender and $3,000 worth of air bags go off (even though you were going 20 mph with your seatbelts on), the price of the repair has just been tripled for no reason. The never ending fiddling with tire pressure monitors which seem purposely designed to send you to the dealer (twice as expensive as your local shop and five times as expensive as doing it yourself) is exhausting.

I am fully capable of checking tire pressures, turning my head when backing up, modulating the brake pedal in a panic stop situation. If I choose to buy a rudimentary car without all of this BS on it, I should be able to as an adult who takes personal responsibility. If need be I'll sign some kind of disclaimer.
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