What if.....

[LPSISRL]

Hybrid and Sports Sedan gets stuck in my mouth... I just can't get them to come out together!

[KuroNekko]

Hybrid and Sports Sedan gets stuck in my mouth... I just can't get them to come out together!

While the notion of a hybrid and a sports sedan seem mutually exclusive, in reality a hybrid system can aid performance in a sports sedan. The best example is the Infiniti M37 Hybrid. The hybrid system is more about performance than efficiency in that car.

In addition, the new McLaren P1 is also a hybrid and this thing is an exotic car. The hybrid system actually compensates for turbo lag so the car has seamless, explosive thrust.

Basically, not all hybrids are pokey Prius-types.

[Woodie]

I disagree about the hybrid. I don't get where you are adding 10,000 from or just an increase from 30-35 MPG. I'm thinking more along the lines of 26,000 and 40 MPG. Which would lower your true cost to own over the non-hybrid.

Well, $26,000 is already the price, expect at least $5K, maybe closer to $10K to be added, and there's no way on earth it's going to go from 30 to 40 mpg. Maybe the city number might go up that much adding hybrid, but most people don't get anywhere near that in real life. The highway numbers go up very little, often one or two mpg.

They're better than they were, but the value is still not there. Plug in hybrids are better, especially if you have a short commute, but now you're adding even more cost and more weight to increase the environmental impact and decrease the handling.

Look at the Volt, $35,000 for a car that goes 35 miles and then turns into an overweight, sluggish, 35 mpg sedan? Plus, the idea of the federal government splashing in $7,000 of other people's money in a vain attempt to rescue a poorly thought out car goes against every fiber of my character. That sort of crap is exactly what my signature below is referring to.

[Knightstruth]

I disagree about the hybrid. I don't get where you are adding 10,000 from or just an increase from 30-35 MPG. I'm thinking more along the lines of 26,000 and 40 MPG. Which would lower your true cost to own over the non-hybrid.

Well, $26,000 is already the price, expect at least $5K, maybe closer to $10K to be added, and there's no way on earth it's going to go from 30 to 40 mpg. Maybe the city number might go up that much adding hybrid, but most people don't get anywhere near that in real life. The highway numbers go up very little, often one or two mpg.

They're better than they were, but the value is still not there. Plug in hybrids are better, especially if you have a short commute, but now you're adding even more cost and more weight to increase the environmental impact and decrease the handling.

Look at the Volt, $35,000 for a car that goes 35 miles and then turns into an overweight, sluggish, 35 mpg sedan? Plus, the idea of the federal government splashing in $7,000 of other people's money in a vain attempt to rescue a poorly thought out car goes against every fiber of my character. That sort of crap is exactly what my signature below is referring to.

I have no idea where you are getting your numbers. I'm talking the camry, fusion, sonata hybrids. They don't cost 35,000 and they are getting 40+ mpg. The volt is a different breed and that is getting like insane numbers when it is on electric only. The real world data is there, all you have to do is ask a owner of one of the above hybrids I mention and they will confirm it.
When someone mentions they want a hybrid, it does not mean they want a prius. I'm confident we will get to the point in which car models will not only offer a more powerful engine option but a more fuel efficent option. Just look at the trends.

[KuroNekko]

Look at the Volt, $35,000 for a car that goes 35 miles and then turns into an overweight, sluggish, 35 mpg sedan? Plus, the idea of the federal government splashing in $7,000 of other people's money in a vain attempt to rescue a poorly thought out car goes against every fiber of my character. That sort of crap is exactly what my signature below is referring to.

I don't think the Volt is necessarily a bad car. It's not selling as well as GM hoped, but I think it's because a lot of people don't understand how it works. It's one of the first PHEV on the market and is always powered by electricity. The engine actually never powers the wheels. When the charge in the battery runs out, the engine on board becomes a generator that creates electricity to power the electric motors.

While a 35 mile range seems pathetic, think of how often you drive over 35 miles. I can commute to downtown DC and back in about that range. This would mean that someone like me could drive to and from work with no use in fossil fuel. This is beneficial because electricity is far cheaper than gasoline. On top of that, many places offer free EV charging (my garage at work does). This means I could actually get away with never paying for any source of energy to commute to and from work if I charge up in the work garage everyday. Epic.

There is a member here who has a Kizashi and his wife drives a Volt. He praised the car and said that he calculated that the car delivers about 100 eMPG.

While I understand your gripe about tax payers subsidizing this car (as you are a staunch Libertarian), other foreign governments even do more. Japan and Germany heavily have their hand in their automotive industry and do what they can to make sure their companies get ahead and their citizens stay employed.
While I am no fan boy of GM, I did not want them to go bankrupt and not be competitive with the Japanese, Germans, and other makers.

Back to the actual car. The Volt is actually quite a good car. It has one of the highest owner satisfaction rates and is also very reliable. GM resolved the post-crash fire issue rather quickly too. While it may be overweight, it seems to get the job done for what it was built for. My main gripe with the car is the styling. I think it needs a overhaul. Heck, even the Prius looks good compared to it. I am also not fond of the interior so I think a complete redesign is needed. However, that's my opinion.

Keep in mind that when people say hybrid, they almost always think of a Toyota Prius. It's wildly successful and is rather a good car (other than in performance) however, it did not start off that way. I recall that when it debuted, people couldn't care less about it. It was ugly and people did not see the benefits of hybrid technology. I recall an episode of Top Gear in which they destroyed the first gen Prius deliberately at the end of the episode out of loathing for the car.
Fast forward to now. It's one of Japan's best selling cars and the #1 car sold in California last year. Toyota is making a killing on it.

I hope the Volt can get in on this success too. It's actually quite a good car.

Lastly, I want to add that just because a car does not sell well does not mean it's a bad car. After all, we are Suzuki Kizashi owners and most of us love our cars. However, the car was a disastrous failure in the market and its lack of sales a crippling blow to Suzuki. So bad, Suzuki pulled out of North America following its flop and word seems to be they will give up on the midsize segment following this. I really think the Kizashi will not get redesigned and will be phased out like an Isuzu Vehicross. However, we owners all know that the car itself is actually quite impressive and outshines most of the competition.

[Moto]

Look at the Volt, $35,000 for a car that goes 35 miles and then turns into an overweight, sluggish, 35 mpg sedan? Plus, the idea of the federal government splashing in $7,000 of other people's money in a vain attempt to rescue a poorly thought out car goes against every fiber of my character. That sort of crap is exactly what my signature below is referring to.

I'm going to bet you have probably never ridden in one.

2011 Chevrolet Volt 0-60 mph 8.9 Quarter Mile 16.7
^ this figure remains the same regardless of if you are using the gas engine to charge the battery or not as the engine has zero connection to the wheels.

2010 Suzuki Kizashi AWD 0-60 mph 9.3 Quarter Mile 17.2
2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport SLS 0-60 mph 7.1 Quarter Mile 15.8

Because of the battery pack placement in most hybrid/all electric cars it makes it easier to balance the car and handle much better.

Coal powered cars are "A OK" with me. The reality is that we can use just about anything to generate power and it is much easier to transport in lines than sending semi loads of flammable liquid to every corner of the planet.

There are a lot of places where efficiency needs to be improved but the long term trend is that electrics will overtake everything on their own.

I won't get into the details of what I think about the government, but it is important to note that we are one of the only developed nations not to have a national energy plan/policy. The simple truth is that we are getting our asses kicked by other countries that understand the importance of have a diversified energy portfolio.
Germany and China are probably good examples that have vastly different approaches to the problems they face.

I currently work in oil and gas, but I have worked in windpower in the past. I will make the switch into solar when it become appropriate. (I'll be on a coal gasifier next week)

A well thought out plan that is focused on alternative energy while improving the grid is probably best the way to go.

Before anyone goes on a rant about subsidizing alternative energy please keep in mind that we heavily subsidize oil companies as well. (I would bet a lot more than anyone really knows)

The simple truth is that energy development is going to be expensive on the front end which includes cars(and that is why we see a lot of high end cars making the switch first).
No worries though... I am fairly certain that our government is not capable of making the right decisions on this matter. We are already beyond broke so spending more is not an option, but if we took most of the defense budget and spent it on infrastructure development we would probably be a lot better off. I wouldn't even care if they used a militarily like program to do the work. (realistically we would probably be safer too)

Unfortunately this topic is much bigger than cars, but we had better try to stay on topic Oops

In 15 or 20 years we will probably wonder why we ever sold cars that ran on gas. By that time we will hopefully have have access to big 3D printers that print in nearly any material as well (like carbon fiber).

[Moto]

Gah I typed so slow that KuroNekko got a post in that hit several of the same points.

[Ronzuki]

Unfortunately at the end of the day w/ the volt, you still need petrol and its distribution system as well as fossil fuel fired electric generation and its ailing distribution system. Therefore, I see no upside for a government subsidized vehicle from a government subsidized company that I would never buy. And how about that bad Fisker investment we the people made eh?

[KuroNekko]

Whether electricity is generated by fossil fuels is actually very dependent on where you live. In states like Pennsylvania and West Virginia, it's likely coal. However, in other places, it's nuclear or natural gas. Geography and natural resources are the main factors. In Washington state, hydroelectric is the #1 source of energy, so clean energy is a reality there.
However, the accessibility to EVs and alternative technology is another matter. Many people can't afford these technologies until the economies of scale drive down costs.

[Knightstruth]

Whether electricity is generated by fossil fuels is actually very dependent on where you live. In states like Pennsylvania and West Virginia, it's likely coal. However, in other places, it's nuclear or natural gas. Geography and natural resources are the main factors. In Washington state, hydroelectric is the #1 source of energy, so clean energy is a reality there.
However, the accessibility to EVs and alternative technology is another matter. Many people can't afford these technologies until the economies of scale drive down costs.

I like the idea of the volt but as of right now it is too pricey. It is hard to look at the car the way it is priced then look at other cars in that price range. I see it as a toy for the wealthy or the environmentally concerned. I believe these electric cars would need to get down around the 25,000 to really become a hot sale.