My 2010 Suzi won't start

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BLyons
Posts: 226
Joined: Sun May 24, 2015 12:22 am

Here is the rest of the Keyless Start Module Circuit. I'd imagine the main draw is coming from the 50A ignition fuses. As for the internals of it, I'm not sure if that's in the manual. Mine acted up again today, so I think I might try pulling the fuse tomorrow night.

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Black 2011 Sport SLS AWD
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KuroNekko
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Ronzuki wrote: This is the price of the nifty technology the world is so fascinated with embracing. It's all wonderful ...when it's working. So when it's not any longer, you'll be forced to embrace it all over again in a different way...the price, the cost, the unknown, the unreliability and the aggravation. If this doesn't suit your fancy, petition auto makers to knock-off with all the unnecessary gadgetry by purchasing simpler base model vehicles (which still have too much non-sense in them). They'll get the message, eventually, when the mega-dollar vehicles sit on dealer lots and don't sell...Keep It Simple Stupid. A keyed ignition still works best. Crank windows still work best. Manual door locks still work best. Every function of a vehicle's operation does not need to be run through a 'control module' and software.
Oh you know I like playing the devil's advocate on these topics so I will.
I agree with the positive aspects of keeping things simple but despite the appeal and the fans, these don't sell especially in affluent America. Base trims never make the top sellers for any model and cheap and austere cars don't sell well in general. Take Mitsubishi for example. They sell good quality cars that are affordable and reliable, keeping to the "budget" side of the market, much like Suzuki did when they were around. Mitsubishi even makes one of the cheapest new cars available with the Mirage and while it's helped the brand stay afloat, they are still poised to follow Suzuki out of the market if their all-new Eclipse Cross doesn't sell well. Americans simply want nicer cars and they typically avoid value models with dated features. Heck, most Americans even avoid brands associated with budget vehicles altogether and Suzuki's image had a lot to do with their demise despite the good technical record of actual Suzuki vehicles.

Also, from my experience, even traditional features like keys, roll-up windows, and mechanical locks fail over time. Keys wear down and locks seize up or their linkages break. Roll-up windows break internally too. All have happened on multiple vehicles in the family fleet once past the 100K mark on the odometer. It's usually these types of issues that make keeping the car annoying and most people decide it's time to move on to a newer car even if the powertrain is still okay.

Also, technology has made car theft so much harder. It's things like micro-chipped keys and fobs that have made car theft plummet in America and statistically, even today, the most stolen cars are 90's Hondas, Toyotas, Fords, and Chevys that didn't have the technology to protect against simple means of auto theft. I'm talking about screwdrivers in the ignition for some of these cars which allows even untrained kids to steal them.

I'd also say technology like fobs have made things more headache-free than the opposite. For one, I love that it's virtually impossible to lock yourself out of the car with the keys in the car when you have a fob. Having done that once with a traditional key in an emergency situation (wildfire evacuation) with my dog stuck in the car, you can bet that I'll always prefer a fob over a key. It simply protects better from human error which in my book happens way more than technological failure.

While there is no doubt there are virtues to simple features (mainly the low cost of repairing issues), I can't say their pros outweigh their cons and consumers have certainly told automakers with their wallets that they need to keep up rather than keep it simple.
2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport GTS 6MT (Black)
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Ronzuki
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:lol: :lol: I knew you would and expected nothing less!

As always, on this topic, we're going to have to agree to disagree. I work in this world, industrially, and I can tell you with great fact and certainty that this "convenience" costs us all far more in all the goods we buy. I'm sitting here on a boat load of control systems for an OEM machine builder I can't deliver (read several 100 thousands of dollars tied up) because the customer HAD to have near field communications between the control system's built-in HMIs (operator interface screen) running the machines and the service tech's dumb-phones. Well now that nifty shit isn't passing the pre-shipment QC tests and no one, including the maker of said nifty shit can figure out why. That costs us money to borrow and float that money. The end customers will be falling behind their installation schedules, that always costs more money. Who do you think ultimately pays for these cost over-runs? What used to be a simple engineering and implementation task 20 years ago is now an over complicated and expensive mess, that doesn't last because technology changes too fast for its own good.

Just because this 'can't live without it (technology)' mentality is so rampant, the tech gets employed regardless of whether or not it makes any sense. It's always sold as a cost savings methodology...but the guy stating such isn't the one implementing it, starting it up, and supporting it (usually for free). Call the useless reps on the carpet about the said "savings" that were being promoted and all you hear is crickets. I've been in plants that are humming along very smoothly and problem free that have 40+ year old controls running in them (think 1960s autos that any grease-monkey in any corner gas station could get squared away, no matter the problem, easily and inexpensively). Replace the keyswitch, done. Replace the window regulator, done. All simple hand tools for the most part. Not the thread about how the hell all of us are going to communicate with the OBDII system in a few years w/ and XP machine that's 3 generations obsolete, or whatever voodoo will need to happen, maybe. We're constantly being called upon here at my company to fix, 'upgrade', or simply attempt to make systems function as they were intended (but never did) that are only 7-10 years old. 70% of the time the solution to the problem ends up being a gut job (think sell/trade your car before it's even paid off). Mainly due to the over-use of unnecessary technology that no one, including the manufacturers of said tech, can support (think modern autos, your Tesla for instance or even our Kizashis by the looks of all the crap running in and out of the Keyless Start module). Programmable devices employed in systems that no one has the source code for, deep knowledge of what is going on inside the black-boxes (think the keyless ignition and fobs and antennas and inductive coupling) when, in fact, simple passive devices were all that were needed to achieve the reliable results the customer paid for in the first place (think a simple key in an ignition switch). Which is cheaper in the long run? Which is going to cost the consumer more in the long run? The price of the goods from the plants whose controls were paid for decades ago or the ones where we're gutting a system that hasn't even achieved its original ROI yet? (Return on Investment)?

And what happens next is almost just as certain...and is a very simple, and well proven fact. The plants that can't operate in the black in this country either close up and send whatever it is over seas to be produced, in many cases by million-men/women/children workforces, or, they get bought up for pennies on the dollar (because they're in trouble) by foreign entities. Bulk manufacturing moves to India, China, down to Mexico and next up on the international hot-plate folks, Africa. Hell we had a process valve rack for a brewery application here in the U.S. show up here for integration with a control system that was made in the freaking Ukraine. It could have easily been fabricated right down the street from here, quicker and of better quality. But you see, the company we're working on this with is a Danish owned global monster that has rooted its manufacturing operations in nearly every third world hole they can find with lower than dirt cheap labor. And it's not just manufacturing, we lose programming jobs for this customer to India constantly, then have to deal with their lousy un-documented code here when it doesn't work (think all those nifty black boxes in your car and hearing "we had to re-flash the ECM", to fix a problem that should have never been there in the first place). This dilemma is also caused by technology...it's called the internet. Far too easy to keep zinging source code back-n-forth from Indian programmers.

Therefore in light of the perception that technology is, or defines, "progress", always with the good uses, comes the bad. I find both personally and professionally, in most instances anymore, that the bad is far outweighing the good causing more frustration, aggravation and unnecessary expense all around.
Ron

2010 Kizashi GTS, CVT, iAWD (3/10 build date)
2011 SX4 Premium Hatch, CVT, iAWD (12/10 build date)
2018 Mazda CX-5 iAWD Touring
2014 Wrangler JKUW (GONE, traded :D :D )
1991 Samurai, 5-Speed, EFI, Soft-Top ( :| sold)
BLyons
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I tried pulling the fuse. Did it in ACC so the steering would be unlocked, then started the car and it started right up, no warnings or anything, so I was hopeful for a brief moment. But as soon as I turned it off, it gave a Service Steering Lock message and kept beeping constantly and flashing the key sign on the instrument panel. It wouldn't even go back into ACC or anything at this point. After I put the fuse back in everything was normal, thankfully.

This makes me think that even a bypass might not work on our cars. Replacing the unit might be the only option.
Black 2011 Sport SLS AWD
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Ronzuki
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So, you've learned the difference between the 1960s automotive tech and today's tech. Pull a fuse then, the thing it protected was disabled...end of story. Pull a fuse now and the dash lights up like a Christmas tree along with the incessant noise because the programmers never dreamed that there might be a need, maybe, someday, to over-ride a gov mandated "safety, security, for-your-own-good-can't-live-without-it" feature.

I don't know what said mechanism looks like, but if I were to go through all the aggravation involved with opening up the steering column, I'd be looking for a way to permanently disable the damn thing on the cheap. You've already attempted the simple and easy 'bypass' solution by pulling the fuse. Yeah, the voodoo is a little too smart for that anyway since that fuse is an input to the module and likely the power for it as well. Furthermore, it is likely monitored. Hence the car's programmed reaction. Unplug the locking gadget the module is controlling (module output) and see if it'll allow you a start attempt. My suspicion is the voodoo in the module won't let you get away with it seeing how the lock has 4 wires running to it instead of simply the two needed to active an electro-mechanical device. I took the Heep in for leaking roof service (5th time now) and the service writer plugged his invasion of privacy device in to the OBD port right away to harvest information from the black boxes on-board. Not surprisingly, they knew right away my voice command mic was unplugged. I had removed the A-pillar trim piece to learn where the water intrusion was originating from and the mic is in that cover piece. It was a line item right on the print-out "low resistance mic circuit" (or something like that) with the mileage, oil life left, firmware revs and all kinds of other nifty information the voodoo is monitoring. I don't get a copy of that by the way...it's important dealer eye-only information ya know. I just happen to see the multiple pages laying on his counter and picked them up to see what it all said. So trust me, the vehicle monitors when chit's unplugged...'it's all about safety'...or is it 'all about the children' ? I get confused about all that non-sense sometimes. Anyway, I digress....

If simply unplugging is a no-go, and I suspect it will be, then do what ever you need to do to jam the lock pin, lever, giznoid in the release position (it's busted and worthless at this point anyway, so why not right?). Once permanently forced to the 'released' position, and with it still plugged in to the harness/module, see if the programming gods will allow a start. Any bells or whistles in protest? As I said, it's a 4-wire device when only 2 are needed. So again, I suspect there will likely be a protest demonstration from the car.

If all that fails then you'll have to pay the outrageous money and replace the stupid thing.
Ron

2010 Kizashi GTS, CVT, iAWD (3/10 build date)
2011 SX4 Premium Hatch, CVT, iAWD (12/10 build date)
2018 Mazda CX-5 iAWD Touring
2014 Wrangler JKUW (GONE, traded :D :D )
1991 Samurai, 5-Speed, EFI, Soft-Top ( :| sold)
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KuroNekko
Posts: 5170
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:08 pm
Location: California, USA

Ronzuki wrote::lol: :lol: I knew you would and expected nothing less!

As always, on this topic, we're going to have to agree to disagree. I work in this world, industrially, and I can tell you with great fact and certainty that this "convenience" costs us all far more in all the goods we buy. I'm sitting here on a boat load of control systems for an OEM machine builder I can't deliver (read several 100 thousands of dollars tied up) because the customer HAD to have near field communications between the control system's built-in HMIs (operator interface screen) running the machines and the service tech's dumb-phones. Well now that nifty shit isn't passing the pre-shipment QC tests and no one, including the maker of said nifty shit can figure out why. That costs us money to borrow and float that money. The end customers will be falling behind their installation schedules, that always costs more money. Who do you think ultimately pays for these cost over-runs? What used to be a simple engineering and implementation task 20 years ago is now an over complicated and expensive mess, that doesn't last because technology changes too fast for its own good.

Just because this 'can't live without it (technology)' mentality is so rampant, the tech gets employed regardless of whether or not it makes any sense. It's always sold as a cost savings methodology...but the guy stating such isn't the one implementing it, starting it up, and supporting it (usually for free). Call the useless reps on the carpet about the said "savings" that were being promoted and all you hear is crickets. I've been in plants that are humming along very smoothly and problem free that have 40+ year old controls running in them (think 1960s autos that any grease-monkey in any corner gas station could get squared away, no matter the problem, easily and inexpensively). Replace the keyswitch, done. Replace the window regulator, done. All simple hand tools for the most part. Not the thread about how the hell all of us are going to communicate with the OBDII system in a few years w/ and XP machine that's 3 generations obsolete, or whatever voodoo will need to happen, maybe. We're constantly being called upon here at my company to fix, 'upgrade', or simply attempt to make systems function as they were intended (but never did) that are only 7-10 years old. 70% of the time the solution to the problem ends up being a gut job (think sell/trade your car before it's even paid off). Mainly due to the over-use of unnecessary technology that no one, including the manufacturers of said tech, can support (think modern autos, your Tesla for instance or even our Kizashis by the looks of all the crap running in and out of the Keyless Start module). Programmable devices employed in systems that no one has the source code for, deep knowledge of what is going on inside the black-boxes (think the keyless ignition and fobs and antennas and inductive coupling) when, in fact, simple passive devices were all that were needed to achieve the reliable results the customer paid for in the first place (think a simple key in an ignition switch). Which is cheaper in the long run? Which is going to cost the consumer more in the long run? The price of the goods from the plants whose controls were paid for decades ago or the ones where we're gutting a system that hasn't even achieved its original ROI yet? (Return on Investment)?

And what happens next is almost just as certain...and is a very simple, and well proven fact. The plants that can't operate in the black in this country either close up and send whatever it is over seas to be produced, in many cases by million-men/women/children workforces, or, they get bought up for pennies on the dollar (because they're in trouble) by foreign entities. Bulk manufacturing moves to India, China, down to Mexico and next up on the international hot-plate folks, Africa. Hell we had a process valve rack for a brewery application here in the U.S. show up here for integration with a control system that was made in the freaking Ukraine. It could have easily been fabricated right down the street from here, quicker and of better quality. But you see, the company we're working on this with is a Danish owned global monster that has rooted its manufacturing operations in nearly every third world hole they can find with lower than dirt cheap labor. And it's not just manufacturing, we lose programming jobs for this customer to India constantly, then have to deal with their lousy un-documented code here when it doesn't work (think all those nifty black boxes in your car and hearing "we had to re-flash the ECM", to fix a problem that should have never been there in the first place). This dilemma is also caused by technology...it's called the internet. Far too easy to keep zinging source code back-n-forth from Indian programmers.

Therefore in light of the perception that technology is, or defines, "progress", always with the good uses, comes the bad. I find both personally and professionally, in most instances anymore, that the bad is far outweighing the good causing more frustration, aggravation and unnecessary expense all around.
I understand the frustration from an industrial point, but consumer demands drive the industry. I know that your clients ask for seemingly unnecessary technological implementations, but had your company refused to cater to those requirements, isn't it likely you'd not have that contract? General consumers, especially in America, want high tech gizmos and the convenience they bring, especially in automobiles. Furthermore, when safety is involved like with the steering lock, you will have mechanisms that detect and prevent attempted bypasses and I imagine it's for legal reasons. We live in a country where people sue companies and win when they spill hot coffee on themselves. Toyota was sued for "unintended acceleration" and also paid fines to the government when no one could prove there was anything wrong. It was a witch hunt ranging from the carpets, to the accelerator pedal, to the computer system yet no one could prove any constant and systematic fault. Still, the government fined Toyota for not recalling their vehicles and they paid millions in fines and settled individual cases. It was easier for them to pay the fines and move on than to fight to prove driver error was responsible in nearly every case and that there wasn't sufficient technical evidence to issue a recall. Can you then blame Toyota and other automakers for further implementing systems that won't allow you to operate the vehicle unless damn near every little thing checks out? I think the push in the industry reflects on us as consumers. We want the fancy shit but when it goes wrong for whatever reason (whether anything is actually wrong in the first place), we want others held accountable. I believe automakers have responded to those two realities.

As for simple cars, yes, they certainly have their virtues and appeals. I really do like the idea of a durable, low-tech vehicle that can be easy repaired. However, they come with many compromises ranging from efficiency, emissions, to everyday convenience. Furthermore, they aren't very profitable in first-world nations with dense urban areas. As appealing as vehicles like the Toyota Land Cruiser 70 is, they don't really belong in Los Angeles, New York, Miami, etc. and aren't practical for most consumers. Even when more primitive vehicles were sold, they didn't sell well among the newer competition so they were phased out. Hence, while there are virtues to simplified durability, the need isn't there for most first-world consumers. We don't live in Africa, in the Outback, or in such remote and hostile regions where a breakdown can spell death. As Americans, we love our big, "tough" SUVs but most run to the mall, yoga studios, and schools rather than overlanding in the middle of nowhere for duty use. In fact many more Americans have shown with their wallets they'd rather lease unreliable and complicated European vehicles for the luxury and performance than go with rugged, overbuild vehicles designed to run for decades. I think we all have met a number of people who have absolutely no interest in whether their cars will run 5 to 10 years from now because they will be on another vehicle by then. Even Toyota knows this with the Land Cruiser therefore have given America the poshest version which is essentially a luxury vehicle more than a heavy duty truck like other international variants.

Furthermore, these old-school low tech vehicles have a much harder time meeting safety and emissions standards that keep getting more stringent. While that opens a whole other argument, there is no denying that the government is the only entity that can impose and enforce environmental regulations for automakers to meet. Hence automakers have to meet those standards while worrying about what consumers want while also making sure their products don't come back to sue them for millions or billions. Technology is simply the solution. It allows cars to be more efficient to appease the government, while giving the features consumers want (and remaining competitive in the market), while minimizing the chances that people and their lawyers sue the shit out of you, especially when the culpability isn't with the vehicle or its systems.

As a big DIY guy, I'm with you that technology impedes simple and cheap fixes to the detriment of the consumer. However, I can't deny that automakers have good reasons to do it given all the demands and risks they face. Furthermore, as I've debated with you in the past in the Tesla thread, consumers can be rather stupid and automakers have to make up for that. It's hard enough asking people to pay attention to the road when they have their smartphones. Heck, is it only me or have you noticed more people now drive with their lights off at dusk and night than decades before? I know the reason why too. It's because cars now have their instrument gauges always lit. In the past, you needed to turn on your lights for the instrument cluster to also illuminate. Now, it's always on which opens up the risk for people to not even realize they are driving around in the dark with their lights off. Given I see this every single day, I'm a huge fan of DRLs which has improved safety given it doesn't rely on driver input. However, automatic headlights or DRLs as standard is something I'd support given the reality that people commonly drive at night with no headlights on. It makes sense for always-on backlit instrument panels which seems to confuse or distract people regarding appropriate headlight use. It's come to the point where technology on the part of the automaker needs to compensate for the lack of responsibility on the part of the driver. If it's going to keep me safer from those drivers, I'm all for it.
2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport GTS 6MT (Black)
sandy123
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did anyone resolved this issue.. Ive the same issue now , showing steering wheel lock and dosent start .. :(
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Woodie
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Mine's doing it about 25% of the time now. I've ordered the steering lock motor, when it arrives I'll put it in and tear the old one apart to see if I can figure out what goes wrong.

When it does this, take your foot off the pedals and press the button to turn the car off. Open the driver's side door and you will hear the motor cycle to lock the steering. All set, close the door and start the car.
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BLyons
Posts: 226
Joined: Sun May 24, 2015 12:22 am

I ordered one too. Unfortunately, it only came with one bolt instead of two, so now I have to work with them to get my second bolt. One rep said they would send it free of charge (like they should), then 3 minutes later another rep said my order had been created and was ready for me to pay ($20?!).
Black 2011 Sport SLS AWD
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Ronzuki
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Location: Lancaster County, PA

Woodie wrote:Mine's doing it about 25% of the time now. I've ordered the steering lock motor, when it arrives I'll put it in and tear the old one apart to see if I can figure out what goes wrong.
This might be a good step-by-step DIYer with pics kinda thing to have on the site since, it would appear, this is going to be one of those recurring problems that folks will be asking about time and again.
Ron

2010 Kizashi GTS, CVT, iAWD (3/10 build date)
2011 SX4 Premium Hatch, CVT, iAWD (12/10 build date)
2018 Mazda CX-5 iAWD Touring
2014 Wrangler JKUW (GONE, traded :D :D )
1991 Samurai, 5-Speed, EFI, Soft-Top ( :| sold)
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