CVT

[KuroNekko]

"Automatic transmission" vs. "automated manual transmission" is based on how you define it. I still call DSG and dual clutch systems "automatics" because the shifting is done by the car, not the driver. It employs clutches much like a manual and not a torque converter as found in conventional autos, but the car is still doing it for you and you can even opt to have it fully automatic (Put it in D and not use the paddles to shift at all).
For this reason, I call them automatics and not really automated manuals since how you use it defines how it should be called.
Regardless, transmissions with clutches offer better performance than those with torque converters.

[paininthenuts]

"Automatic transmission" vs. "automated manual transmission" is based on how you define it. I still call DSG and dual clutch systems "automatics" because the shifting is done by the car, not the driver. It employs clutches much like a manual and not a torque converter as found in conventional autos, but the car is still doing it for you and you can even opt to have it fully automatic (Put it in D and not use the paddles to shift at all).
For this reason, I call them automatics and not really automated manuals since how you use it defines how it should be called.
Regardless, transmissions with clutches offer better performance than those with torque converters.

Agreed. The norm in the UK is a manual, and that's what I have driven most of my driving career. In fact, my truck has 9 forward gears, and two reverse. This entails using a range changer mounted on the gear stick. Easy when you get used to it, but mind blowing when you are learning. All that said, I love autos because after all these years, and probably more than a million miles later, it's just easy

[SamirD]

It's very impressive what the DSG-type automatics have been able to do. I drove a BMW with their SMG and it was very nice. I test drove a Carrera a few years ago with their DSG and it took a bit to get used to, especially reverse as you could feel the clutch being engaged and disengaged. Their modern versions are very slick from what I've heard, and the new 911 is actually almost faster than turbos from years past.

What surprises me is that a lot of this technology wasn't the focus of manufacturers versus the cvt. CVT sounds great in theory, but before that theory has some solid practice behind it, why not use an existing (and proven) manual and then automate it? That seemed like a more logical step than to jump into cvts.

Now, when the manufacturers can figure out how to do continuously variable valve timing (basically, an infinite cam), that will push efficiency up another big notch. I always wanted to implement this using solenoids.

[Knightstruth]

It's very impressive what the DSG-type automatics have been able to do. I drove a BMW with their SMG and it was very nice. I test drove a Carrera a few years ago with their DSG and it took a bit to get used to, especially reverse as you could feel the clutch being engaged and disengaged. Their modern versions are very slick from what I've heard, and the new 911 is actually almost faster than turbos from years past.

What surprises me is that a lot of this technology wasn't the focus of manufacturers versus the cvt. CVT sounds great in theory, but before that theory has some solid practice behind it, why not use an existing (and proven) manual and then automate it? That seemed like a more logical step than to jump into cvts.

Now, when the manufacturers can figure out how to do continuously variable valve timing (basically, an infinite cam), that will push efficiency up another big notch. I always wanted to implement this using solenoids.

I always thought CVT were cheaper to employ in cars than DSG. That is why they are being used because it keeps cost down. I don't think CVT's are as bad as some people make them out to be.
They do rob power but I thought in the Kiz it was .5 second difference. I would like someone to correct me if I'm wrong but I thought manual Kiz 7.1 0-60 and CVT 7.6 0-60. It is when you add the weight of AWD that is going to 8.5.

[~tc~]

Regardless, transmissions with clutches offer better performance than those with torque converters.

Not true. The torque doubling effect of a torque converter has significant performance benefits.

The only benefit of the DSG type box is he shifting speed. Since both gears are actually engaged already, shifts are practically instantaneous because all the transmission has to do is switch from one output shaft to the other. Now, this benefit can be significant - apparently the Porsche PDK cars consistently put up better lap times than either the manual or automatic versions.

[~tc~]

II always thought CVT were cheaper to employ in cars than DSG.

No, CVTs are used because it's a better way to use an internal combustion engine. It allows the engine to run at ideal RPMs and make up the speed by varying the gear ratio.

[KuroNekko]

Regardless, transmissions with clutches offer better performance than those with torque converters.

Not true. The torque doubling effect of a torque converter has significant performance benefits.

The only benefit of the DSG type box is he shifting speed. Since both gears are actually engaged already, shifts are practically instantaneous because all the transmission has to do is switch from one output shaft to the other. Now, this benefit can be significant - apparently the Porsche PDK cars consistently put up better lap times than either the manual or automatic versions.

By performance, I mean speed. By speed, I mean track times. In this realm, transmissions with clutches are superior. Many performance-oriented cars intended for track use have a clutch-based tranny and not a torque converter. Cars from the Evo, GT-R, to the Pagani Huayra all avoid torque converters and have dual clutches or a single-clutch sequential gearbox.
The setback is the rather harsh shifting in everyday use. I frequently hear or read about harsh, unpolished shifting from these cars when in use around town. However, these cars are for the enthusiast, not a daily driver.

I'm also a bit confused about your claim regarding the PDK. That's a dual clutch transmission, but Porsche offers that as the only automatic for their coupes. It's either the PDK or the manual and the Tiptronic is only seen in the SUVs.

[KuroNekko]

What surprises me is that a lot of this technology wasn't the focus of manufacturers versus the cvt. CVT sounds great in theory, but before that theory has some solid practice behind it, why not use an existing (and proven) manual and then automate it? That seemed like a more logical step than to jump into cvts.

Now, when the manufacturers can figure out how to do continuously variable valve timing (basically, an infinite cam), that will push efficiency up another big notch. I always wanted to implement this using solenoids.

The existence of the CVT is mainly for fuel efficiency. It's rather horrible for performance, but automakers needed to meet fuel efficiency standards and consumers wanted better MPGs. The answer was the CVT. Dual clutch autos don't really get better fuel economy than manuals, but just about every CVT model betters its manual version in fuel efficiency. Until CVTs came along, manuals were the go-to for better MPGs. Not anymore.
Dual clutch autos are also known to be rather rough at shifting while CVTs don't even shift gears at all so it's as smooth as any transmission could be.

Keep in mind that the average car buyer buys a car as an appliance so factors like fuel efficiency and smoothness are valued rather high and sells the car. In this regard, it's not a surprise why CVTs have become so popular in segments such as compacts and midsizes.

I always thought CVT were cheaper to employ in cars than DSG. That is why they are being used because it keeps cost down. I don't think CVT's are as bad as some people make them out to be.
They do rob power but I thought in the Kiz it was .5 second difference. I would like someone to correct me if I'm wrong but I thought manual Kiz 7.1 0-60 and CVT 7.6 0-60. It is when you add the weight of AWD that is going to 8.5.

I think those figures are way off. I think most publications have the manual in the high 7's and low 8's and the CVT in the 9's, especially with AWD.

[~tc~]

The PDK is a DSG transmission. The Porsche training school in Georgia HEAVILY advocates leaving the PDK in "automatic" (Sport+) mode for best lap times.

CVT technology can improve both performance AND mileage. It's all in the tuning.

CVT has been banned from F1 for a reason - it's too fast. The ability to better use the engine is a significant advantage.

[KuroNekko]

The PDK is a DSG transmission. The Porsche training school in Georgia HEAVILY advocates leaving the PDK in "automatic" (Sport+) mode for best lap times.

CVT technology can improve both performance AND mileage. It's all in the tuning.

CVT has been banned from F1 for a reason - it's too fast. The ability to better use the engine is a significant advantage.

Too bad those aren't the kind of CVTs found in the Kizashi.

I actually played around a bit today with accelerating hard from a stop. With the ESC/traction control off, I can chirp the tires good, even in 2nd gear and take off in a hurry. It's no hot hatch, but doesn't quite disappoint.
Shift it!