What if.....

[Ronzuki]

We also burn trash around here as well. And being down wind just plain sucks No technology is w/o fault, adverse effects, difficulties or pollution.

Consider this...I drive 19 miles to work. I'm there an hour and my boss tells me I have to drive 50 miles further away from home to a job site. Roughly half my charge is gone getting to work have been only recharging for an hour (sponging off the company's fossil fueled electric) maybe I get to the job site (maybe I don't). Can't fully recharge because I won't be there terribly long. So how to get back to the office and then home? Who ya gonna call? That's right, Sunoco. Who in this day and age is going to be diligent and constantly be looking for a place to 'plug-in' after every little trip. Just like the guy I talked to pumping gas in to the one and only Volt I'd ever seen...at the gas station...never has a chance (or too lazy) to charge it. What about a 400 mile trip for vacation? Who's going to stop how many times and recharge for however many number of hours it takes? EV is not practical even if a volt truly could cost $24k. The economies of scale will never get there. All that aside, how about the cost of replacing those batteries? Battery technology is better than it used to be, but it isn't great and they're very expensive. Volt batteries were sourced from China and we all know how wonderful their QC is. A quality battery to simply start your car and operate the accessories can be $150 or more.

[Knightstruth]

We also burn trash around here as well. And being down wind just plain sucks No technology is w/o fault, adverse effects, difficulties or pollution.

Consider this...I drive 19 miles to work. I'm there an hour and my boss tells me I have to drive 50 miles further away from home to a job site. Roughly half my charge is gone getting to work have been only recharging for an hour (sponging off the company's fossil fueled electric) maybe I get to the job site (maybe I don't). Can't fully recharge because I won't be there terribly long. So how to get back to the office and then home? Who ya gonna call? That's right, Sunoco. Who in this day and age is going to be diligent and constantly be looking for a place to 'plug-in' after every little trip. Just like the guy I talked to pumping gas in to the one and only Volt I'd ever seen...at the gas station...never has a chance (or too lazy) to charge it. What about a 400 mile trip for vacation? Who's going to stop how many times and recharge for however many number of hours it takes? EV is not practical even if a volt truly could cost $24k. The economies of scale will never get there. All that aside, how about the cost of replacing those batteries? Battery technology is better than it used to be, but it isn't great and they're very expensive. Volt batteries were sourced from China and we all know how wonderful their QC is. A quality battery to simply start your car and operate the accessories can be $150 or more.

In the scenario you described either a volt is not right for you or you drive a different car to work. Besides it can run on gas if needed. The range of the electric cars will improve. It is the way of the future whether you want it or not.

[KuroNekko]

I am quite nosey here, but it's a topic I have interest in.
Anyhow, I really think the optimal type of fuel in a car varies from person to person based on their use of the car.

I personally could be fine with a plug-in hybrid, but not a full EV for my uses (unless it was a Tesla Model S). I use my car for not only commuting, but for driving around for work. Even then, a plug-in would give me the best of both worlds.
Also, the majority of people who can afford a 35k car easily are white-collar desk jockeys who primarily drive Monday through Friday for commuting to work. The majority of these people would probably benefit from a plug-in hybrid, especially if they can charge up while at work.

For the long range driver or the people in rural areas, I think a diesel is best. You get great fuel economy on highways and range is extensive. Diesel engines are also very robust and easily outlast most gasoline engines due to their tougher build as they are compression ignition. This characteristic is optimal for the long range driver who racks up the miles faster than others. Diesel vehicles are what I would choose if I was in a remote, rural area. Also, folks who tour the world/remote corners of the world almost always do it in a diesel SUV.

If you are an inner-city dweller in a large city, an EV makes a lot of sense. If one can live with a Smart car or something like that then an EV would probably be a good fit too.

However, a plain gasoline car is the most economical for most people. While VW TDI fans like to claim their Jettas/Golfs, etc. give them better MPGs therefore lower operating costs, they may be forgetting two critical factors: The higher price of a diesel car vs. gas variant and the higher price of diesel fuel vs. gasoline (in the US). In the end, driving habits will determine if one actually saves $ by having a diesel powered car. Just because one gets better fuel economy does not mean they are saving $ if the fuel they use is significantly more expensive.

Regardless, the future will bring inevitable change and I welcome it. If you think about it, it's about time we move on from internal combustion engines. The technology is about 100 years old, despite improvements along the way. Rather than innovations on the same system, it's about time there is a paradigm shift.

[Ronzuki]

Well stated, as always, Kuro. Your two car scenario is not an economically practical solution for any typical one person. My feel-good-save-the-planet car and the one that actually does what it needs to do. What's being saved isn't going to out-weigh the costs in that regard. My point being a volt or any other similar car, like it or not, simply isn't practical for the vast majority of drivers and therefore never going to sell in enough quantity to become affordable and to accomplish its green initiative. I'd be driving a diesel right now, however, manufacturers seem opposed to supplying this country with them in the average vehicle. Jeeps are equipped w/ diesels elsewhere... not here (for years they keep threatening they're going to sell them and never come through to the point no one believes it). SX4 diesels elsewhere, never here. The manipulation of diesel prices higher than gas is simply greed driven, it wasn't always that way. 30 years ago diesel was far cheaper than gas. Why a lesser refined product now costs more is just plain greed. Your point of a diesel engine far outlasting a gasser is where the real 'savings' occurs. The act of building fewer cars, itself, is environmentally friendly no?. As with anything else built to last, not economically friendly aye?

[murcod]

Just to throw a "curve ball"- I read somewhere that the particles from new diesel engines (even when equipped with particulate filters) are potentially going to be one of the next big cancer causers.... There are a lot of diesel models for sale in Australia and you can see the "soot" coming out the exhaust on these newer models when driven hard (eg. observed on a late model Audi A4, Jeep Cherokee and Ford Territorys - a locally made model - are shocking for it.)

We get various Jeep diesels, but no SX4 diesel. A lot of people are also complaining about various issues- like the fuel economy not being anywhere near the claimed figures and rising engine oil levels (diluted oil) from the cleaning process for the particulate filters. I wouldn't buy one unless I did a lot of longer trips, the people using them for shorter trip "city runabouts" seem to be the ones raising the concerns.

[Moto]

For the long range driver or the people in rural areas, I think a diesel is best. You get great fuel economy on highways and range is extensive. Diesel engines are also very robust and easily outlast most gasoline engines due to their tougher build as they are compression ignition. This characteristic is optimal for the long range driver who racks up the miles faster than others. Diesel vehicles are what I would choose if I was in a remote, rural area. Also, folks who tour the world/remote corners of the world almost always do it in a diesel SUV.

Most people where I live are not trusting of Diesels when it gets cold and there are basically zero AWD options in the US right now.

The lack of diesels is largely to blame on our strict diesel emotion standards and all of the red tape required to get a diesel engine certified in the US.

I believe that in the past the process was different for trucks than for cars.

Most recent example
http://blog.caranddriver.com/2014-mazda ... -the-wait/

I'm still waiting for the subaru diesel but I have a feeling I'm going to be waiting a long time. (It was suppose to be two years but now I haven't seen anything)
147 HP at 3600 RPM and 258 lb.ft. at 1800 RPM.
for comparison a 2013 WRX produces 244 pound-feet of torque
The diesel won't be as quick but it will have good low end power and will nearly double the mileage of the turbo models subaru currently sells in the US.

The difference between Premium and Diesel is usually only a few cents.

[Moto]

There are a lot of diesel models for sale in Australia and you can see the "soot" coming out the exhaust on these newer models when driven hard (eg. observed on a late model Audi A4, Jeep Cherokee and Ford Territorys - a locally made model - are shocking for it.)

Modern diesels sold in the US do not smoke/soot at all. Maybe a few of the bigger trucks if you really get on it.

I believe their may be some different emission standards that go into effect at full throttle. Might be making that one up. I read it somewhere long ago. Something about not being normal/sustained operation.

[KuroNekko]

Just to throw a "curve ball"- I read somewhere that the particles from new diesel engines (even when equipped with particulate filters) are potentially going to be one of the next big cancer causers.... There are a lot of diesel models for sale in Australia and you can see the "soot" coming out the exhaust on these newer models when driven hard (eg. observed on a late model Audi A4, Jeep Cherokee and Ford Territorys - a locally made model - are shocking for it.)

We get various Jeep diesels, but no SX4 diesel. A lot of people are also complaining about various issues- like the fuel economy not being anywhere near the claimed figures and rising engine oil levels (diluted oil) from the cleaning process for the particulate filters. I wouldn't buy one unless I did a lot of longer trips, the people using them for shorter trip "city runabouts" seem to be the ones raising the concerns.

I agree that diesels are not as good for short commutes, especially in the city. It is well known that diesels emit more harmful emissions (this is how the gov't justifies higher prices on diesel), but diesels also consume less fuel. In the end, they are about equal in environmental impact (modern diesels) to gasoline engines. However, as I already stated, diesels shine on the highway when they are in passenger cars. While they even get comparatively better fuel economy in the city, the higher price of diesel offsets the savings as they are not as efficient in the city as they are on the highway.
Gasoline engines are also getting far better and are now bordering diesel fuel economy territory. For example, the fuel economy ratings in the Mazda3 with the SkyActiv engine is really only a few mpg away from a VW Jetta TDI's economy in both the city and the highway.
This is straight from both manufacturer's websites:
2013 Mazda3 SkyActiv auto: 28 city /40 hwy.
2014 Jetta TDI auto: 30 city /42 hwy.

Now consider that in the US, diesel is about or a little more expensive than premium gas, while a Mazda SkyActiv engine can run on regular gas. Around my area, the difference between diesel and regular gas is about 35 cents a gallon.

Regardless, in a city, an EV or hybrid makes more sense than diesel if one was looking at a gasoline alternative. In rural areas, the opposite.

Also, the black soot from diesels is from when one romps on the accelerator and the turbo boosts. You will not see that in normal driving, especially cruising on the highway. I've got a Jetta TDI in the family and I'm familiar with the boost soot. It's sometimes fun to leave a plume when you mash on the accelerator.

[n8dogg]

In Washington state, hydroelectric is the #1 source of energy, so clean energy is a reality there.

At a local fair, here in Washington State, a representative from the local power utility was trying to sell "green energy." We could elect to pay a premium on our utility bill that would go towards investment in this "green energy" I asked what was green enery ( I thought our Hydro power was green). He stated 70% of our energy was coal produced. So maybe we're selling our hydro to other states? Anyway, the pitch was for wind as dams aren't considered "green" because bad for the fish I guess.

[KuroNekko]

In Washington state, hydroelectric is the #1 source of energy, so clean energy is a reality there.

At a local fair, here in Washington State, a representative from the local power utility was trying to sell "green energy." We could elect to pay a premium on our utility bill that would go towards investment in this "green energy" I asked what was green enery ( I thought our Hydro power was green). He stated 70% of our energy was coal produced. So maybe we're selling our hydro to other states? Anyway, the pitch was for wind as dams aren't considered "green" because bad for the fish I guess.

I was in Washington a few weeks ago and went to a fair. Could it be the same one in Puyallup?
Regardless, I call BS on coal in Washington. I think it's hydroelectric. It's what my buddy in Washington told me and also from my own research I did before my post on it.
Regarding the fish argument, there are always pros and cons. I imagine wind and solar have very little yield compared to even hydroelectric. I consider "green energy sources" means that are A) renewable and B) do not pollute the environment. Hyrdoelectric fits that bill.