Off topic talk from Whinning CVT thread - Korean cars etc

Non-Suzuki related topics. Anything can go here.
murcod
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KuroNekko wrote: As for Hyundai and KIA handling: I've not read a single review that said their suspensions are getting sportier and rivaling the sporty-handling Japanese cars. Most reviews have stated they are soft and tuned for comfort. In this regard, they can't touch Japanese cars like the Mazda6 and Kizashi not to mention entry-level sports sedans from Infiniti, Acura, and Lexus.
Perhaps in the US market, but as already mentioned other markets get better suspension tunes.
...the Pro_Cee'd GT drives like a dream. The Koup Turbo is a cruiser with a bit of power. The Pro_Cee'd GT is a more sophisticated machine, with a greater focus on handling.

And a lot of that is down to Kia Australia’s efforts with local suspension and steering tuning.

While the running gear was untouched, Kia Australia’s chassis boffins - led by guru Graeme Gambold - tweaked the dampers, springs and swaybars.

Spring-rates and damper tunes are firmer than the European-spec suspension, and the sway-bars are fatter.

The electric power steering has also been re-calibrated to improve feel and feedback. It certainly feels more "natural" - ie. more like a conventional set-up - as Kia claims.

Yet while Kia isn’t pitching the Pro_Cee'd GT as a hot hatch (“warm hatch” is their preferred term), the company is certainly confident in the capabilities of its new sporty hatch.

So confident in fact, that they booked Tasmania’s Baskerville raceway for us. And for a warm hatch, this little GT is decidedly hotter than most.

The 7.7 second 0-100km/h time is quick but, yes, we know, there are quicker hot-hatches out there. Put it on a compact circuit like Baskerville though and the Pro_Cee'd GT has just the right recipe. Modest power, but a great chassis.

Throwing it into a corner while trail-braking can see the Pro_Cee'd GT’s tail step out a few degrees, but it proves remarkably controllable on the limit.

.... Don’t make the mistake of thinking that the Pro_Cee'd GT is little more than a more expensive and more stylish version of the Koup Turbo.

Though some of the performance numbers do align, there’s a greater depth to the Pro_Cee'd GT that sets it apart.

It’s got genuine handling credentials, good steering and a tractable powertrain. And all for a retail price that’s less than $30k.

Kia expects to sell 100 Pro_Cee'd GTs per month, which is substantially more than the number of Koups the company currently sells.

Still, with the way the GT looks and drives, we wouldn’t be at all surprised if Kia moves quite a few more through its showrooms.
http://www.themotorreport.com.au/58454/ ... irst-drive
David
murcod
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KuroNekko wrote:... The Japanese also package their sports sedans like they do family midsizes. They make things like AWD and manual transmissions mutually exclusive. Meanwhile, Audi offers a S4 with a stick shift and AWD and LSD via a supercharged V6.
So you don't get manual versions of the Mitsubishi Evo or Subaru Liberty GT or WRX / WRX STi in the USA?

http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com.au/veh ... ifications
http://www.subaru.com.au/liberty/2.5-gt-premium
http://www.subaru.com.au/wrx-and-wrx-sti


It seems you should be finger pointing at Suzuki (or the USA importing arms of Mitsubishi/ Subaru) than Japan in general?
David
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KuroNekko
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murcod wrote: So you don't get manual versions of the Mitsubishi Evo or Subaru Liberty GT or WRX / WRX STi in the USA?
Thanks for splitting the thread, Murcod.

North Americans do have the manual versions of the Evo, WRX, and STI (manual only). There is no Subaru Legacy GT anymore (the Liberty is called the Legacy outside of Aus/NZ, I believe). The only Legacies are CVTs now.

However, the existence of manual WRXs and Evo doesn't take away from my argument given I was mostly arguing about Sport Sedans. Most don't consider the Evo and WRX as "Sports Sedans", and definitely not entry-luxury vehicles as most Sports Sedans are. In this light, the competition to BMW, Benz, and Audi would come from Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura as the Japanese offerings. It's my argument that these Japanese brands don't spec their models like the Germans.

Further, the Audi S4 easily outperforms even the Evo and STI. It simply has more power and better technology. In fact, the closer competitor would be the new S3 and even that car is said to out-edge the STI. Check it out below in this video from the UK. Now consider that the S4 is the S3's bigger, badder brother.

[youtube][/youtube]

Simply put, the Japanese companies that should be making cars to rival the S4 and its German brethren simply don't. They make one car and then leave it at that. Lexus offered the IS F (recently discontinued) and then spawned performance-void "F Sport" aesthetic trims for their other models. They made the LFA as their supercar and then ended production only after 2 years.

Nissan has the GT-R which is a beast, but pretty much poured all performance cred into that one and only car. Infiniti is finally developing the Q50 Eau Rouge (Basically, a Q50/Skyline fitted with a GT-R engine), but that's rumored to be a $100K sedan when it goes into production. Acura? They don't even try performance.

Meanwhile, you can nearly get an AMG, S (some even RS), or M version of every car from their respective German companies. This is the crux of my argument in that Japanese companies simply don't do performance like the Germans.

While it's true that the Japanese cars are cheaper, it's also not surprising given the Germans offer more innovative technology. In regards to something like a Subaru vs. Audi comparison, you just can't compare things like the interior. The STI is simply an economy car decked out as a performance vehicle. The S3 is an entry-level luxury sedan with some performance chops. The video isn't kidding about the S3's interior either. I sat in a new A3 at a recent auto show and found it among the best interiors of all the cars in the show.
murcod wrote:It seems you should be finger pointing at Suzuki (or the USA importing arms of Mitsubishi/ Subaru) than Japan in general?
Suzuki is a small and cheap car specialist. Asking them to create a high performance car to rival Euro luxury/performance is like asking Porsche to make a cheap 4-banger priced under 30K to rival Toyota. It's just not what either company does. The Kizashi was Suzuki's venture into bigger cars and it was drastic global failure. The only time "Suzuki" and "performance" are in the same sentence is when their motorcycles are being discussed. It's the brands like Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura I turn to to offer German-rivaling performance, not the small companies like Subaru and Mitsubishi who pretty much make performance versions of their economy cars.

The reason I call out Japan is because no one from the any Japanese brand is trying to offer what the Germans offer nearly across their line up. Hence, performance enthusiasts seek BMWs, Audis, and Benzs simply because the Japanese don't offer anything to really rival them.

Don't get me wrong. I love Japanese cars. I love the WRX and Evo and really appreciate models from Infiniti, Lexus, and Acura. However, it's simply a reality that they just don't offer the performance of German cars and when they do, it's often in a ricer-boy, huge spoiler look compared to a sleek, luxury German car as the video exemplified.
2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport GTS 6MT (Black)
sx4rocious
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I actually agree with almost everything you said. Suzuki is my second forray into the world of Japanese engineering, but the Kizashi is my first "sport" entry. I dabbled a little with Nissan (owning a 1995 pick-up and a 2010 Versa. Not exactly sport by any means...) which really is a great company, buy their best performance models being spec-v trimmed bloated Altimas and flimsy Sentras, I hardly think they can compete with even an entry level BMW. Prices are even similar between spec-v Nissans and entry level one series BMWs. Well, within a couple grand anyway. Given the choice, I'd definately go with the German products.

I have also owned 2 performance cars and one family sedan from Germany. Both of the Performance cars were horribly unreliable, but amazing to drive. The sedan was reletively reliable, but interiors left much to be desired. The performance cars were older examples (a 1991 VW Corrado G60 and 1985 BMW 535is) but did so much with lower power ratings. The Corrado's supercharged 1.8L inline 4 was rated around 185 HP and the BMW's NA 3.5L inline 6 was rated somewhere around 240 HP if I recall. I believe both cars were GROSSLY underrated as they had so much more pick-up and twisty-power than the similar rated and just as heavy Kizashi. Handling was on par with the Kizashi, but were it struggles to pass without downshifting into 3rd on the highway, the BMW and VW would already be 2 miles down the road.

As much as I love my Suzuki's, I dont' make excuses for them. Compared with the BMW and Corrado I once owned, they're slow, period. Price also isn't a factor at all considering I paid $3500 for the Corrado and $1000 for the BMW. The Japanese really need to give us something sporty soon. I also love the WRX and the Evo, but truthfully, I'd rather have an S3 or M1 if given the option.
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KuroNekko
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sx4rocious wrote:I actually agree with almost everything you said. Suzuki is my second forray into the world of Japanese engineering, but the Kizashi is my first "sport" entry. I dabbled a little with Nissan (owning a 1995 pick-up and a 2010 Versa. Not exactly sport by any means...) which really is a great company, buy their best performance models being spec-v trimmed bloated Altimas and flimsy Sentras, I hardly think they can compete with even an entry level BMW. Prices are even similar between spec-v Nissans and entry level one series BMWs. Well, within a couple grand anyway. Given the choice, I'd definately go with the German products.

I have also owned 2 performance cars and one family sedan from Germany. Both of the Performance cars were horribly unreliable, but amazing to drive. The sedan was reletively reliable, but interiors left much to be desired. The performance cars were older examples (a 1991 VW Corrado G60 and 1985 BMW 535is) but did so much with lower power ratings. The Corrado's supercharged 1.8L inline 4 was rated around 185 HP and the BMW's NA 3.5L inline 6 was rated somewhere around 240 HP if I recall. I believe both cars were GROSSLY underrated as they had so much more pick-up and twisty-power than the similar rated and just as heavy Kizashi. Handling was on par with the Kizashi, but were it struggles to pass without downshifting into 3rd on the highway, the BMW and VW would already be 2 miles down the road.

As much as I love my Suzuki's, I dont' make excuses for them. Compared with the BMW and Corrado I once owned, they're slow, period. Price also isn't a factor at all considering I paid $3500 for the Corrado and $1000 for the BMW. The Japanese really need to give us something sporty soon. I also love the WRX and the Evo, but truthfully, I'd rather have an S3 or M1 if given the option.
Your experience summed up my views well.
I think German cars are better to drive. I think Japanese cars are better to own.
Factors like reliability, cost of ownership, parts prices, etc. all favor Japanese cars so they are better for the everyday driver.
German cars often offer more power and better driving dynamics in addition to more innovative technology so they make better cars to drive.
That being said, they often break down and cost a lot to repair. German cars are even joked to be built to last a lease term since the majority of German luxury drivers are leasers. Meanwhile, I see 20 year-old Acuras and Lexuses all the time being driven by people who are obviously not car people. They treat their Japanese luxury car like a Corolla and it still runs. Try that with a 20 year old Audi... if it even makes it to that age.

About the WRX: I'd prefer that over a S3. It's cheaper and though not as powerful, it would satisfy me thoroughly. I've taken a seat in a 2002 bug-eye Rex and loved it. The new ones are much better. The car just appeals to me in a lot of ways.

The STI and Evo are a different story for me. I have mad respect for these cars, but for the price point, I'd rather go with a more well-rounded car like a S3. The STI and EVo are too oriented on performance and compromise a lot on things like comfort, practicality, and even style. While the STI and Evo look great in some ways, they don't have the styling to be versatile. For example, a STI rolling up to a fancy restaurant looks out of place. Meanwhile, an Audi S3 can totally pull that off.

On the topic of Japanese luxury performance cars, I've recently seen in my JDM auto magazine that Toyota released concepts for a GS F and the upcoming RC F. The RC is the new 2 door coupe for Lexus. It looks like both F versions will be offered for 2015 packing a N/A 5.0 V8.

RC F

Image
2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport GTS 6MT (Black)
sx4rocious
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KuroNekko wrote:Image
I think Babe the Blue Ox and a Cylon from Battlestar Gallactica had a baby...

Anyway, I once again agree with you. Like everyone else, I love a well built Rex or Evo, but I also know that I rarely break the speed limit. What's the use of having 350HP if I'll never use it? I do like not having to touch a brake to take the three or four curves we have in Indiana though (MY LORD THIS STATE IS FLAT AND STRAIT!!!) I have dreams of someday participating in track days, but I'd buy a much cheaper track-only car if that was the case. An older Miata or S2k perhaps. When it comes to daily driving, I'd be more likely to buy a nicely equipped Impreza than a STI, or maybe a loaded up Galant rather than a Evo (I hate the regular Lancer... REDESIGN ALREADY MITSU!!!) simply because I was always taught it was a waste to buy more than you need.

This is where the 1 series or S3 fit nicely. Somfortable, I'd use that. Powerful, but not too powerful, yup, that would be fun on the rare occaision I find a curve in Indiana. Safer, I have kids, so definately inportant. Cheap to fix, who an I kidding? I'm buying a nicely equipped Impreza...
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