Kizashi Club

Your Kizashi Owners Club and Forum 

Non-Suzuki related topics. Anything can go here.
 #48179  by redmed
 Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:22 am
I have driven many years without TPMS and can tell when the air pressure is low in one of my tires. I have survived quite well without TPMS. Compared to the many problems TPMS has caused in the few years I have had to put up with it. A recent problem was last week while driving thru a bad part of town I drove thru a abandoned parking lot with debris. Shortly after, that parking lot, the dreaded TPMS Low Pressure Light came on. Thinking I'm probably getting a flat tire from something I picked up in that parking lot. I made some frantic and dangerous maneuvers in heavy traffic to pull into the least dangerous spot I could find to change a tire. Only to discover that none of the tires looked low and the air pressure gauge I usually keep in the glove box was left on my workbench at home. I decided to sit in that spot for 15-20 minutes to determine which tire was loosing air. This exposed my wife and I to some pretty seedy characters while we waited. Tell me again how TPMS makes me safer. After waiting none of the tires seemed to be any different than when I first pulled into that spot. We decided to abandon where we where planning to go and drive in the opposite direction 12 miles to a friends business where I knew he had a air gauge. Most of those 12 miles was on the expressway where I drove in the slow lane so I could easily pull over to the shoulder if I needed to change the tire. After testing each tire I discovered one tire has dropped down to 35psi and that was why that stupid low pressure light came on. I could possibly understand 20psi or even 25psi but 35psi? And all the stress and unnecessary danger those frantic maneuvers put us in just because a tire fell below 35psi. Why can't I turn off the TPMS?
 #48182  by KuroNekko
 Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:46 am
First, let me start off by saying thanks for creating the separate thread. I understand why you'd want this discussion here instead of the other thread. The reason why I have a habit of discussing matters diverging from the original topic in the same thread is simply because this site has such low traffic, the threads need more activity. I agree that it's somewhat counterproductive for the topic on hand as a future reference thread, but without continued site activity and visitor traffic, this site will die out. The admin/owner of the site has made that clear. The future requires the activity of today in other words and it's the main reason why I post in the active thread even if the conversation goes a bit wayward from the original topic. In many cases, without a continuing discussion, some threads don't get activity (posts or views) for months at a time. For such a low volume forum like this, that can be a death sentence.

redmed wrote:I have driven many years without TPMS and can tell when the air pressure is low in one of my tires. I have survived quite well without TPMS. Compared to the many problems TPMS has caused in the few years I have had to put up with it. A recent problem was last week while driving thru a bad part of town I drove thru a abandoned parking lot with debris. Shortly after, that parking lot, the dreaded TPMS Low Pressure Light came on. Thinking I'm probably getting a flat tire from something I picked up in that parking lot. I made some frantic and dangerous maneuvers in heavy traffic to pull into the least dangerous spot I could find to change a tire. Only to discover that none of the tires looked low and the air pressure gauge I usually keep in the glove box was left on my workbench at home. I decided to sit in that spot for 15-20 minutes to determine which tire was loosing air. This exposed my wife and I to some pretty seedy characters while we waited. Tell me again how TPMS makes me safer. After waiting none of the tires seemed to be any different than when I first pulled into that spot. We decided to abandon where we where planning to go and drive in the opposite direction 12 miles to a friends business where I knew he had a air gauge. Most of those 12 miles was on the expressway where I drove in the slow lane so I could easily pull over to the shoulder if I needed to change the tire. After testing each tire I discovered one tire has dropped down to 35psi and that was why that stupid low pressure light came on. I could possibly understand 20psi or even 25psi but 35psi? And all the stress and unnecessary danger those frantic maneuvers put us in just because a tire fell below 35psi. Why can't I turn off the TPMS?


In all honesty, I'm not too sure this is a problem with the TPMS more so than the way you handled it. I know warning lights are scary and all, but I don't consider the TPMS warning something that requires immediate attention in a manner to put you in harm's way. After all, if a tire was very low or flat, you'd know from the way the car drove as you stated from experience. You can always feel the wheel on very low or flat rubber. While the car does certainly act dramatic when the TPMS warning is set off with multiple orange warnings, there's no need for one to act the same. It requires attention, not immediate intervention.

Another consideration is that a vehicle's instrument light color selection is very deliberate. Note that the TPMS warnings are in orange, much like a check engine light. The orange color is specifically used as a notification of something that requires attention like checking at the earliest convenience but not immediate intervention. That is reserved for red indicators. This is why the oil pressure indicator, brake warning indicator, and a few others are red. These red warnings require the vehicle to stop and the matter to be resolved before driving again to prevent a dangerous driving condition or serious damage to components. Green indicators are the obvious running indicators hence the headlight and DRL indicators are in green. This isn't my opinion but something I read written by an SAE Master Tech a while back that made a lot of sense.

As for turning off the TPMS, I agree that this should be an option. I think there are situations where one should be able to override the system and turn it off. However, I explained previously in the other thread why manufacturers have no incentive to do this. In fact, it's a legal liability. Hence, though I agree as a vehicle owner that we should be able to turn the system off, I understand why the automakers don't give that option, especially given that TPMS are required by law. Allowing such an option would be bait for fines and civil law suits for the manufacturer following incidents where a vehicle crashed for reasons related to low tire pressure yet the system was deliberately turned off.
 #48185  by Ronzuki
 Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:04 pm
KuroNekko wrote: but without continued site activity and visitor traffic, this site will die out. The admin/owner of the site has made that clear. The future requires the activity of today in other words and it's the main reason why I post in the active thread even if the conversation goes a bit wayward from the original topic. In many cases, without a continuing discussion, some threads don't get activity (posts or views) for months at a time. For such a low volume forum like this, that can be a death sentence.


Well that's disappointing...understandable, but very disappointing. I love this site and the true 'car peeps' here. It's the only one I bother with anymore.

From what I understand from others, this safety annoyance is a blaring take-over of the HUD, not some little idiot light icon that one could grow to ignore.

You mention the 'it's law and legal liability BS' thing again which is the source of my loathing. What the hell does a do nothing TPMS in a vehicle have to do with actual safety? Or the roadway systems that I pay for? How about the all-knowing worry about laws and reasonable funding for the crumbling and over-congested infrastructure (roads) and stay the hell out of my personal space?

TPMS doesn't trigger an on-board air compressor to re-inflate or maintain safe operating pressure. The same idiots that don't check their air pressures, and drive around routinely w/ idiot lights on, will give a rats-butt about the TPMS being on if the car still goes down the road. Where's that picture someone posted somewhere of a TPMS'd car with its front tire down to the belts. Yeah, that guy. Think he cares? Maybe I ought to petition our exalted anointed ones to pass a law to have manufacturers disable restart of the vehicle once the TPMS is activated...ya know so there's no way they can harm me or themselves... for my continued boy-in-the-bubble safety? How about that? Then the thing would have a true safety function. In the world of automation, installing such an utterly useless 'thing' would be deemed a huge waste of time and money if it doesn't do something to correct the problem, or, prevent damage. It would serve no purpose, only add expense and be quickly eliminated from any design during review. The one thing you all need to understand about safety is it has a price. If that price is too significant, despite what everyone proclaims, it will be deemed unworthy and everyone will play the odds. They threw TPMS in vehicles because a bunch of politicians rallied for it, great. They didn't follow through with how the thing reacts because it's too damn impractical and expensive. Hence we get the annoying orange dash display. In the case of the TPMS, either re-inflate, prevent the vehicle from moving (for safety sake), or get rid of it.

How many exalted ones with lawyerly backgrounds have an ounce of engineering experience to enable them to make credible decisions for me? Much like their continued desire to take over health care for all of us...two letters for ya...VA. That's all you need to know about the government making health care decisions for you.

You'd mentioned turn signals...another mandated safety innovation you can't trust. Left signal on...bam! Right turn Clyde! Motorcycle rider safety course I took 3+ decades ago taught me many, many useful things about driving. One was to NEVER trust turn signals. You want to know where someone is planning on turning, observe their front wheels, observe their driving behavior, observe the vehicles posture on the road. Like a running back's hips, doesn't lie. I could care less about other peoples' turn signals. Most times, they're already beginning to cut me off before they turn them on...back-ground noise for me. Just this morning, in fact top of the exit ramp, dude rolling up to the light in front of me had his right turn signal on and continued left. Just another day on the road. I knew he wasn't turning right, so why bother with the signal? I counter, for safety's sake, that if there wasn't a signal it wouldn't be there for said operator to improperly utilize and adding confusion. One would have to wait and observe which way the guy was going to move. Mirrors, same thing...trust but verify with a quick glance over the shoulder before changing lanes.

Technology will never solve the lack of responsibility issues, just going to make EVERYTHING cost more than it should. ANd all too often the technology that everyone grows numb to and relies on far too heavily fails.

Just last week my youngest was driving his GF's Equinox and it started making 'bad' noises and cut off at an intersection. Turned out to be very low oil engine noises when he called me and I heard it over the phone. No dash lights lit, no oil pressure gauge. 3-1/2 quarts low. There's what happens when ya don't check oil routinely. His GF says to me why didn't a light come on and tell me to add oil?
:facepalm:
 #48186  by redmed
 Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:13 pm
KuroNekko wrote:
In all honesty, I'm not too sure this is a problem with the TPMS more so than the way you handled it. I know warning lights are scary and all, but I don't consider the TPMS warning something that requires immediate attention in a manner to put you in harm's way. After all, if a tire was very low or flat, you'd know from the way the car drove as you stated from experience. You can always feel the wheel on very low or flat rubber. While the car does certainly act dramatic when the TPMS warning is set off with multiple orange warnings, there's no need for one to act the same. It requires attention, not immediate intervention.


I have dealt with what I call the "The Evil Orange Eye" many many times. That is because I try to run my air pressure as low as I can without that "The Evil Orange Eye" going on. Usually I pretty much ignore it and grumble that I wish my representative and senator was here to experience this over the top annoying warning light. Sometimes I will pull over within a mile and visually check the tires and sometimes not. This time was one of my first trips with brand new tires and sensors. I also had just reinflated the tires the night before, after multiple attempts to reprogram the TPMS system by letting air out of the tires, to what I thought was 40+psi. In hindsight I must have resorted to my old habit of 37psi. This also the first time I have used a sensor with rubber stems. Also I had just gotten off the expressway which should have caused the air pressure in the tires to slightly increase. To avoid heavy traffic I took a shortcut through a empty parking lot only to discover a lot of stuff on the pavement much of it looked like glass. As I shot three lanes into a four lane congested road that "The Evil Orange Eye" came on. All these circumstances caused me to take that warning light seriously. Expecting a fast de-inflation (from the broken glass) and not wanting to negotiate back across three lanes on a flat tire I took evasive action back across those three lanes. Considering that to be the safest of bad alternatives.
 #48187  by redmed
 Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:50 pm
If the TPMS system was implemented correctly for "safety" reasons then the warning light would not come on until 20psi or even a lower psi level. Plus it would have been mandated that all four tires current psi and position be displayed to provide useful actionable information. Back when the TPMS legislation was being argued in congress I was a Cspan junkie. Watching the arguments over this subject provided many entertaining hours watching this "problem" being solved by our elected officials. Yes, safety was one of the reasons but the real selling point was all the gasoline that would be saved by properly inflated tires. Giving us a little more time before the certain depletion of oil. Plus the added benefit of less air pollution thus helping save or delay the "Global Warming" or now "Climate Change" crisis.
 #48188  by redmed
 Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:15 pm
Ronzuki wrote:Well that's disappointing...understandable, but very disappointing. I love this site and the true 'car peeps' here. It's the only one I bother with anymore.

I fully agree. This site has provided me with more valuable information and insight than any other forum I have toured. This is the first site I will visit when trying to solve a automotive problem. With the exception of tires, I find the PriusChat forum very informative about tires.

I especially found SamirD's information about the TPMS system very helpful. His idea of letting air out tires to trigger the TPMS sensors has saved me from being at the mercy of the tire stores.

I also found KuroNekko's information about Led lighting very informative. I'm sure I would have attempted changing my Kiz's lighting to Led but reading of what was involved to accomplish that caused me to back off from those thoughts. Probably saving me much time money and frustration.
 #48191  by KuroNekko
 Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:08 pm
Ronzuki, your comment actually just gave me more reason to support TPMS. I know you wrote about all the reasons why people are irresponsible and don't care but that's precisely why the system is useful. It informs and bothers people who would otherwise never be bothered to check or care without something telling them to. While that's negligent for car enthusiasts, it's the norm for most drivers. I actually don't think most drivers don't care at all but rather most people just need a warning or notice to check something. Most people don't bother to check air pressure unless there is some reason telling them to. TPMS is precisely that. Think about your son's girlfriend's Equinox. I know you wrote about that as an example of not trusting a vehicle's warning system however, if the matter was air pressure and not oil pressure, they would have likely never checked that either until it got to dangerous levels. A functional TPMS is essentially like a safety catch from getting to this point for those who'd otherwise never check.

Given we discussed some anecdotal evidence, let me give mine. I was once waiting around at a NTB when an older woman came in. She talked to the manager about her Ford Edge with a TPMS light on. She stated that when the TPMS indicator light came on, she pulled off the freeway and looked it up to find it was related to tire pressure. Thus, she drove straight to the closest NTB to have all her tires checked. When the manager stated that it's likely air pressure in one or more of her tires, she stated that she drives so much that she'd like the tires checked thoroughly by a professional. She explained that she regularly drives between South Carolina and New Jersey and was on this trip when she pulled into my local NTB in Maryland. In essence, the TPMS was the reason why the woman sought inspection and professional service. While I thought it was an exaggerated response to just a TPMS warning light, it was the better response than ignoring it for someone who otherwise had no automotive knowledge. In fact, it was the best thing she could have done. This action by the woman arguably made her and others around her safer.

It's annoying that the Kizashi's TPMS warnings come on even if pressures are over 30 PSI however, the Suzuki Kizashi for all model years, all trims, and all drivetrains has a 38 PSI rating for all four tires. If the TPMS system was set to warn at 20 PSI, that would require nearly 50% loss of air pressure. At that point, it would already affect the handling and safety of the vehicle thus undermining the purpose of TPMS in the first place. In essence, making it actually useless for its main intended purpose. There is no doubt that proper air pressure also helps with fuel economy thus it helps reduce fuel consumption and lower emissions. However, TPMS wasn't legislated for environmental reasons and it was literally a response to the Firestone/Explorer scandal when it was determined underinflated tires were the main factor in the accidents. While burning less fuel is great for the environment, guess what it's also great for? Your wallet! Also, global warming causes climate change. They are cause and effect if you follow the science, not politics, behind it.

Lastly, both Ronzuki and Redmed, you both argue that TPMS as it is in our Kizashis, is useless. You have stated that for it to be more effective it needs to:

"In the case of the TPMS, either re-inflate, prevent the vehicle from moving (for safety sake), or get rid of it" -Ronzuki.

The problem with this approach is that it adds the very things you hate most: complexity, cost, and government control. I've heard of some luxury models that can automatically reinflate tires. That's nice and all but can you imagine the costs of such a system? It would seem like regular TPMS were chump change systems in comparison. Preventing a car from moving due to low pressure would be the very kind of government control you should actually resist. In essence, TPMS as it is is likely the best implementation over these alternatives.

"If the TPMS system was implemented correctly for "safety" reasons then the warning light would not come on until 20psi or even a lower psi level. Plus it would have been mandated that all four tires current psi and position be displayed to provide useful actionable information. " -Redmed

I explained that 20 PSI for the Kizashi would effectively be 50% of the rated air pressure for the vehicle. At that point, it's too low to be considered safe thus the TPMS would fail in its main purpose, making it actually useless. Also, newer and more expensive cars do display the pressure for each tire. My brother's 2017 Chrysler Pacifica does this. However, again, it adds cost and complexity which isn't exactly what we all want or need. The purpose of a TPMS is to alert the driver that one or more of the tires is lower in pressure than it should be. Any other information is actually frivolous though it could be useful. When the TPMS goes off in my vehicle, I check all tires regardless of which one looks a certain way. In most cases for me, the TPMS alerts me of a nail in my tire. This is because I check and refill the air pressure often enough that the tires don't get a chance to lose pressure naturally to set off the TPMS warning. Thus, a foreign object puncture causing an air leak is most often why the TPMS comes on in my Kizashi. In many cases, it's a nail causing a slow but progressive leak. It would still make the tire look fine though it's leaking air. The TPMS is essentially the system that catches what can be easily overlooked and in this regard, I find TPMS very useful.

Also, keep in mind that the TREAD Act was mandated in the early 2000's, long before many cars had multi-info displays to do something like display specific info for a particular system. Thus a simple orange indicator or "evil orange eye" was the way TPMS was going to inform drivers and it worked. It's a simple system but it worked for its intended purpose while not costing more than it should.
 #48193  by redmed
 Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:20 am
Greater than 20psi is not dangerous. The light triggering at 35psi is not for danger reasons. A 35psi trigger is strictly to reduce fuel consumption. The TPMS legislation was initially discussed as a response of the Ford Firestone scandal but was not going to get out of the committee hearings until the fuel consumption angle was introduced. I watched it happen.

"While burning less fuel is great for the environment, guess what it's also great for? Your wallet! "

Yes tell me again how TPMS is great for my wallet. I have been out hundreds of dollars to keep the TPMS at this point semi functioning. For what? A annoying light and a few bucks in fuel savings. Plus the loss of the freedom to determine how much air I can put in my tires.
 #48194  by KuroNekko
 Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:34 am
redmed wrote:Greater than 20psi is not dangerous. The light triggering at 35psi is not for danger reasons. A 35psi trigger is strictly to reduce fuel consumption. The TPMS legislation was initially discussed as a response of the Ford Firestone scandal but was not going to get out of the committee hearings until the fuel consumption angle was introduced. I watched it happen.

"While burning less fuel is great for the environment, guess what it's also great for? Your wallet! "

Yes tell me again how TPMS is great for my wallet. I have been out hundreds of dollars to keep the TPMS at this point semi functioning. For what? A annoying light and a few bucks in fuel savings. Plus the loss of the freedom to determine how much air I can put in my tires.


You can believe what you want about TPMS legislation but it was about safety, not fuel economy. Fuel economy was an added benefit but not the primary concern or the reason for the TREAD Act. Also, I think blaming politicians for TPMS problems is rather misguided. They mandated the law requiring TPMS but did not design or manufacture these systems in the manner that frustrates you. Also, consider that other countries have also adopted TPMS standardization.

Why are you spending hundreds of dollars dealing with TPMS? What are you trying to do? Dare I say if you're playing "parts dart" and guessing what system will work with them, it's better to consult a professional with experience. If TPMS was such a major hassle for everyone, millions would be agonizing over them and professionals overwhelmed with issues around them. The reality? Not so. If anything, the discussion of TPMS programming woes on this forum is largely around people trying to program it themselves with no experience and limited knowledge. It's great that people are sharing their findings but I think frustration is bound to happen when you don't know what you're doing and relying more on trial and error.

Also, the Kizashi's TPMS does not trigger at 35 PSI. Maybe yours does but certainly not mine. In my experience, it's near or below 30 PSI when the light has come on, often hinting at a puncture. 30 PSI is over a 20% loss from specified PSI and should warrant TPMS warning activation.

Lastly, you claim that the system is interfering with your freedom to put in your ideal amount of pressure. You ever stop to think that maybe your ideal pressure isn't a good figure? Dare I say automotive engineers with a wealth more knowledge than us spent quite a lot of time figuring out the ideal pressure for reasons more than efficiency. You realize the tires are responsible not only for ride comfort but acceleration, braking, and cornering performance and factors ranging from vehicle weight distribution to ambient temperature affect this? You assume 38 PSI was set for efficiency. I read up on your earlier posts and you claim multiple times you like the pressure to be as low as possible. Any wonder why then the TPMS would come on or that maybe this practice is a bad idea?
 #48196  by Woodie
 Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:46 pm
KuroNekko wrote:
redmed wrote:Why are you spending hundreds of dollars dealing with TPMS? What are you trying to do? Dare I say if you're playing "parts dart" and guessing what system will work with them, it's better to consult a professional with experience. If TPMS was such a major hassle for everyone, millions would be agonizing over them and professionals overwhelmed with issues around them. The reality? Not so.


I don't know how on earth you can end that with the words "not so", that is simply an assertion with no grounds. Every thinking person is enraged by this.

We're stuck with this as a complete over reaction to the Ford Explorer episode where a few morons killed their families. First the government invented the SUV as a side effect of yet another overreach in social engineering. So now you have pushed a lot of people into an ungainly vehicle that will roll over and kill your family if you get a flat. If you choose to drive such a ridiculous vehicle I don't care if you die tomorrow, live with your choices. Then Ford puts the cheapest tire they can find in a size two sizes too small for the application (which is pretty much standard business) and recommends a crazy low air pressure to make the truck ride more like a car. Firestone jumps up and down screaming about what a bad idea this is and Ford carries on. Oblivious owners load the entire family and gear into an unstable vehicle which hasn't had it's air pressure (and started out remarkably low) checked for a year and proceeds to drive 80 mph for extended periods of time. I'm having trouble mustering up any sympathy here, except maybe a little for Firestone.

I agree that part of the frustration on this forum is Suzuki's complete over reaction as to what the instrument panel does when a tire is low. That makes it far worse than what it needs to be. But outside that factor, we're all coming up to the point where our batteries are going to fail, most sources say they last about seven years. That's going to add about $300 to my next tire change, and I don't appreciate that one bit. Thanks to SamirD it will be more like $150 for those of us who are capable of working on our own cars, but it's a needless expense. I don't need my dashboard screaming at me on the first cold day of the fall every year.