Last One That Posts Wins!

[SamirD]

Fisker Karma for me--I'd like to still be able to drive more than 50 miles at a time.

[KuroNekko]

Fisker Karma for me--I'd like to still be able to drive more than 50 miles at a time.

Ha. You and I really differ on this. I see the Karma as an epic failure both mechanically and from a business perspective. It's notorious for being unreliable and overpriced for the rather mediocre performance.
Also, for the price of a Karma, you can get a Tesla Model S with the 85 kWh battery with close to a 300 mile range. Sure, it's still limiting, but I'm 100% sure those 300 miles are better than the Karma's. Heck, the Karma is slower 0 to 60 than a Subaru WRX while costing 4 times as much! Meanwhile, for the same price, the Tesla Model S P85 accelerates faster than half of the Porsche 911 line-up.
It's no surprise to me that Fisker failed. Overpriced and under-performing products don't survive too long.

[SamirD]

Fisker Karma for me--I'd like to still be able to drive more than 50 miles at a time.

Ha. You and I really differ on this. I see the Karma as an epic failure both mechanically and from a business perspective. It's notorious for being unreliable and overpriced for the rather mediocre performance.
Also, for the price of a Karma, you can get a Tesla Model S with the 85 kWh battery with close to a 300 mile range. Sure, it's still limiting, but I'm 100% sure those 300 miles are better than the Karma's. Heck, the Karma is slower 0 to 60 than a Subaru WRX while costing 4 times as much! Meanwhile, for the same price, the Tesla Model S P85 accelerates faster than half of the Porsche 911 line-up.
It's no surprise to me that Fisker failed. Overpriced and under-performing products don't survive too long.

It was a difficult thing Fisker was trying to do for sure. The specs changed from the original concept to the production car, even leaving off a few of the features like using the solar panel roof to charge the battery (it instead operates fans to cool down the car in the summer heat). There were quite a few issues during the initial delivery and launch, but they got everything sorted quite quickly. But it was too late as the press had a field day with them and financial woes came to bear.

To me, the straight line performance wasn't the only thing, but also the handling. In one road test, it was compared to the 50/50 weight balance of a Ferrari and very easy to drive to the limit. Things like that are what matter to me more because that's what I'm doing more of when I drive regularly.

I know an owner of one of the Signature editions (there were only 99 of them), and he absolutely loves it. I've been meaning to get with him for a full-out interview and road test, but life has gotten in the way. I asked him about the issues, and he actually didn't have many at all. He only needed to have one firmware update and that's it.

I think the biggest problem with any type of plug-in car is that it changes the whole convenience factor. A plug-in hybrid alleviates that with the same convenience that we've always enjoyed--best of both worlds.

Tesla has their fair share of issues like what happens when a battery completely dies, but they've done a better job of addressing these issues. It also doesn't hurt they've got some very strong financial backing.

There's a Model S that I've seen here in the city, and it scoots pretty nicely. I know my brother enjoyed renting one of the roadsters for a weekend, and something like that is really great for short commutes since it doesn't have almost any cargo space. But once you make a 4-door with enough space to go places, limiting it to just battery power kind of cripples its capabilities. This is why I see a plug-in hybrid like the Karma as a better fit for me--I could drive it anywhere just like normal and still plug it up for driving around the city on 'E'.

[KuroNekko]

I get what you are saying about range, but the Karma is really like an upscale, stupid-expensive Chevy Volt. They both are PHEVs that have a little GM onboard engine. The Karma's performance does not justify its 100K price. As I already stated, a 25K hot hatch can outrun it.


Also, I have no doubt the Tesla Model S is a superior handling car to the Karma. Keep in mind that the heaviest part of the Model S is the battery tray which sits at the very bottom of the car. I've talked to people who have driven it and they say it handles very well. Its handling is well praised by critics as well, especially for how heavy the car is.

There is talk of the Karma coming back under new ownership. Curious to see how it'll do, but I think it needs a total overhaul to even keep up with the base model Tesla Model S.

[sx4rocious]

I completely agree with Kuro. The Tesla is a much more appealing car to me in appearence and utility. I think of it this way, in the last 10 years, I have driven over 300 miles without stopping exactly three times. Once to pick up my Kizashi, once to drive to Texas for my honeymoon (that was actually 1200 miles) and once to Oklahoma to see my daughter graduate high school. That's three times in TEN years. other than that, I have pretty much kept most of my driving under the 300 mile there-and-back range of the Tesla. A plug in hybrid just isn't needed for my lifestyle. If I go farther than 300 miles, most owners would typically stop and stay in a hotel overnight and allow the Tesla to recharge. I personally don't much about the handling caracteristics of either car, but I'm not a racecar driver, so anything that could take an onramp at 5 mph over what the little yellow warning sign states is pretty good handling for me!!

And BTW, I'm winning!!

[~tc~]

But the problem is - where do you plug in? The infrastructure is not there,and won't be for a long time.

Diesel is the answer for reducing oil consumption. All that is required is to reverse the taxes so gas gets taxed more than diesel. Everyone will want diesel cars then, and trucking costs on everything you buy will be cheaper - OVERNIGHT. No infrastructure issues, no "lifestyle" issues, done.

[bootymac]

Something something oil lobbyists

[KuroNekko]

But the problem is - where do you plug in? The infrastructure is not there,and won't be for a long time.

Diesel is the answer for reducing oil consumption. All that is required is to reverse the taxes so gas gets taxed more than diesel. Everyone will want diesel cars then, and trucking costs on everything you buy will be cheaper - OVERNIGHT. No infrastructure issues, no "lifestyle" issues, done.

Oh the infrastructure for EVs is improving by the day. In fact, EV charging stations are plentiful in larger cities. While of course not as omnipresent as gas stations, EV charging stations are growing. Also, keep in mind that EV stations can be placed just about anywhere. Unlike a dedicated gas station, you can set up a charging station just about anywhere with electricity. Many parking garages have them (such as my work garage) and so do some store garages and parking lots. Also, you can charge up your EV at home. This makes things very convenient.

In fact, EVs proved to be the better mode of transportation in natural disasters. In both Hurricane Sandy and the tsunami in Japan, there were fuel shortages as fuel distribution got heavily disrupted. People waited for hours to get some rationed fuel for their cars. However, electricity came back rather quickly for most people. Also, EV served as massive battery packs. Some people were even charging their phones from EVs until the power came back.
Having experienced a major earthquake myself (1995 Kobe Earthquake), I can tell you firsthand that electricity is always the first thing to get restored. Water, gas, etc. come much later because of the piping. Things that need to get trucked in are usually the slowest (fuel for example).

I agree wholeheartedly that diesel is the best for long range. My dad owns a diesel VW Jetta so I'm very familiar with diesel cars. However, they do come with their drawbacks. Diesel vehicles are more expensive, the fuel is more expensive, diesel is not sold everywhere, and they require extra maintenance. In fact, most diesel vehicles require a urea fuel treatment to keep emissions down. Diesel actually pollutes more than gas, but because it's more efficient, they balance out. This urea treatment issue is why the Mazda6 diesel's US debut has been delayed for so long. Mazda is trying to develop an engine that meets US specs without the urea treatment.

Also, diesels are noisy and vibrate quite a bit; the polar opposite of EVs which are nearly silent. My dad's Jetta TDI shakes quite a bit at start up and idle. Only on the highway does it quiet down to gas-powered car levels. While it does not seem like a big issue, it can get annoying. After driving my dad's car for a while, when I get back in my Kizashi, the Kizashi seriously feels like a luxury car because of the silent, smooth nature of the gas engine. The Jetta TDI is like a tractor in comparison.

Simply put, diesels excel on the highway. They are most efficient and quiet at highway speeds. In the city and in stop and go driving, they are not that great. While they are still more fuel efficient than gas engines in city driving, they are easily outdone by hybrids in the city environment. Also, the vibration and noise of diesel engines is quite prevalent in slower driving. While new TDIs may seem quiet, just give them time. They will get noisier over time and their turbos may even whine like my dad's car.

As of now, gas and diesels make more sense as they are cheaper and more practical. However, when 300 mile range EVs become more affordable and charging infrastructures improve, I think EVs will be the better mode of transportation for most people. They will be more convenient to charge up (really, can home be any more convenient?) and cost cents to the dollar compared to fossil fuels.

[bootymac]

Did somebody say diesel?



As Kuro said, there are plenty of charging stations already. All the recently constructed parking lots I've been to have charging stations, and accommodations have been implemented in existing lots too. I believe all new buildings are required to have charging stations, but this might be a Vancouver thing.

Even Tesla's network of Superchargers is quite prevalent already

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

[~tc~]

While I agree not every station has diesel, there is NEVER one far away, and especially in the middle of nowhere. There is no way you could drive across Texas in an EV.

How old is your dads jetta? You really need to see modern diesels to believe how quiet and smooth they are.

Cost of diesel would be taken care of by my plan.

The emissions are not WORSE, they are different. They are better in some measures and worse in others. Yet another way the government has conspired against diesel. European environmental controls are FAR harsher than US across the board, except in this - why does 99% of Europe drive diesel?

Agreed about the urea - there has Got to be a better solution (see paragraph above). Especially since they all shut off the car when you run out.


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