What I am telling you is that it is hard to tell what portion of the smog is smoke and fog in Beijing. I was there at the time when Korea complained about the pollution blowing over from Tianjin. The visibility was unbelievable, but it didn't smell, and there was no brown tint to it. I will admit, it was MUCH worse in the winter than it was in the summer.
Admittedly, I am proposing diesel as an interim solution. Considering the decades it would take to make the required infrastructure changes, there are a lot of options beyond simple electric.
CNG is a great alternative in cities where range is not so important (same as electric). The difference in air quality in India since they have mandated the conversation of the auto-rickshaws (also called tuk-tuk's) to CNG is remarkable.
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sx4rocious
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VW Hybrid Jetta sedan --> $33,000+ with 42 City, 48 Highway... 11.8 Gallon fuel tank
VW Jetta TDI Diesel --> $32,500+ with 30 City, 42 Highway... 14.5 Gallon Fuel tank
(According to Autotrader.com sale ads...)
Nissan Leaf --> $38,000+ full electric 99mpg equivilent... No fuel tank
Nissan Versa Note (comparable in almost every way) --> $21,000 with 27 City, 36 Highway... 10.8 Gallon fuel tank
Some simple math that I'll probably screw up since I suck at math...
VW Hybrid --> 566.4 miles MAXIMUM range @ $3.09 per gallon (what I paid this afternoon)
VW TDI --> 609 Miles MAXIMUM range @ $3.89 per gallon
Nissan Leaf --> 73 Miles MAXIMUM range (BOO!! didn't realize it was so short!!)
Nissan Versa Note --> 388.80 Mile Maximum range
Looks like the petrol powered Versa Note wins out to me in terms of cost effectiveness vrs. range right now. It's almost half the cost as the Leaf that you wouldn't be able to drive even an hour without haveing to charge. The VW hybrid and TDI models would be virtually identical therefore it doesn't really matter there in terms of Desiel being "ready today".
Hybrid cars scare me, I'm not going to lie, but right now, it really seems to be the way to go. I have seen charging stations even at the mall in Indianapolis (a smaller city compared to all the cities you all have spoken about in this thread). I do believe this will be the wave of the future someday, just not at the moment. Plus, I can't bring myself to be at the mall long enough to recharge a leaf for the 75 mile trip home!!
As far as the Tesla goes, a 300 Mile REALISTIC range would be awesome, but just not the near $100k price tag. Heck, I paid less for BOTH of my Suzuki's than even the petrol-powered Versa Note!! (which I actually would consider if anything happened to my SX4)
VW Jetta TDI Diesel --> $32,500+ with 30 City, 42 Highway... 14.5 Gallon Fuel tank
(According to Autotrader.com sale ads...)
Nissan Leaf --> $38,000+ full electric 99mpg equivilent... No fuel tank
Nissan Versa Note (comparable in almost every way) --> $21,000 with 27 City, 36 Highway... 10.8 Gallon fuel tank
Some simple math that I'll probably screw up since I suck at math...
VW Hybrid --> 566.4 miles MAXIMUM range @ $3.09 per gallon (what I paid this afternoon)
VW TDI --> 609 Miles MAXIMUM range @ $3.89 per gallon
Nissan Leaf --> 73 Miles MAXIMUM range (BOO!! didn't realize it was so short!!)
Nissan Versa Note --> 388.80 Mile Maximum range
Looks like the petrol powered Versa Note wins out to me in terms of cost effectiveness vrs. range right now. It's almost half the cost as the Leaf that you wouldn't be able to drive even an hour without haveing to charge. The VW hybrid and TDI models would be virtually identical therefore it doesn't really matter there in terms of Desiel being "ready today".
Hybrid cars scare me, I'm not going to lie, but right now, it really seems to be the way to go. I have seen charging stations even at the mall in Indianapolis (a smaller city compared to all the cities you all have spoken about in this thread). I do believe this will be the wave of the future someday, just not at the moment. Plus, I can't bring myself to be at the mall long enough to recharge a leaf for the 75 mile trip home!!
As far as the Tesla goes, a 300 Mile REALISTIC range would be awesome, but just not the near $100k price tag. Heck, I paid less for BOTH of my Suzuki's than even the petrol-powered Versa Note!! (which I actually would consider if anything happened to my SX4)
I don't think 73 miles is the max for the Leaf. That's average range from what I've heard. You can get close to 100 miles, but that depends on driving conditions, much like fuel economy for internal combustion engines.
I also sat in a Leaf yesterday at the DC auto show along with almost all other cars from all other makes. The interior is on par with a midsize like an Altima, not an entry-level car like the Versa, in my opinion. It's actually nicer than it would seem from it's awkward looks and compact size.
Also, I would not consider a hybrid from VW. Diesel yes, but anything reliant on electronics is a no with them. Also, the Camry Hybrid is faster than the Jetta Hybrid despite the nonsense with their modded hybrid running the salt flats. No difference than the custom turbo Kizashi holding the title for "fastest blown gas coupe". As we know, the Kizashi isn't even offered with a factory turbo. All stupid marketing and not surprisingly, neither car sold well.
I also sat in a Leaf yesterday at the DC auto show along with almost all other cars from all other makes. The interior is on par with a midsize like an Altima, not an entry-level car like the Versa, in my opinion. It's actually nicer than it would seem from it's awkward looks and compact size.
Also, I would not consider a hybrid from VW. Diesel yes, but anything reliant on electronics is a no with them. Also, the Camry Hybrid is faster than the Jetta Hybrid despite the nonsense with their modded hybrid running the salt flats. No difference than the custom turbo Kizashi holding the title for "fastest blown gas coupe". As we know, the Kizashi isn't even offered with a factory turbo. All stupid marketing and not surprisingly, neither car sold well.
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sx4rocious
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I agree with you about the VW Hybrids completely. I was simply trying to find a company that made both a hybrid and a diesel in the same model for pricing and MPG comparison. If I were to ever consider a hybrid, I would look no further than Toyota. The pretty much invented the technology and have all but cornered the market since day #1. My 90 year old Grandmother owns a Camry hybrid and absolutely loves the car. Considering she never drove when my grandfather was alive (he died 2 years ago, so she really hasn't driven for about 30-40 years) her learning and driving this car really says something about it's operational ease. She easily has the money to purchase any car she deemed "pretty" or "cute" enough, so something with the kind of technology this car possesses being easy enough for her to figure out and put her off is amazing to me.
I have not been close to an actual Leaf yet. This part of the country is still very aprehensive when it comes to EV's. They really have just recent;y embraced the hybrid in the last 5 years or so. I'm still rather certain the plun-in Prius has yet to grace us with it's presence here in our corner of the universe either. I am interested in in seeing it and maybe even taking it for a spin, but something with that short of a range in this rather scarsely populated farming community would not be readily accepted. The Tesla S, however, would be easily accepted with it's 300 mile range. (I'm about 75 or so miles from Indianapolis, but there REALLY isn't anything between Indy and here!!) I really have no way to compare the Leaf to the Versa since I haven't seen one. However, since we have no Suzuki stealership around here, I have my minor maintenance done at a Nissan dealer here in town. Last month, I actually went out and sat in a new Versa Note. Rather well equipped, the car stickered for $18,500 if I remember correctly, and really impressed me with the build quality. I rather enjoy the "quirky" exterior design, and the interior was well on par if not exceeding the competition. The main selling point for me was the imaculate paint in the car. Pearl coat in an "entry-level" car under $20k was amazing to me. To top it all off, I was told I could order a 6MT in any trim level (you may know for sure if this is true better than me) to avoid the crappy CVT. This is definately NOT common among domestic cars and it's becomming more uncommon among most imports as well.
I've always been a fan of hatchbacks as I like a smaller car, but hate a cramped feel. Having briefly owed a 2010 Nissan Versa (which was totaled before it's 4th payment in an unfortunate widlife safari excursion... ) I have to say, the outside was small, I averaged WELL over 30 mpg's, and the interior was ENORMOUS. Huge in comparison to my SX4. I really enjoyed the electronic speed sensitive steering, the sporty-ish tune of the FBW throttle, and having the pre-CVT traditional automatic, it shifted quick and readily like an entirely different and more exspensive car would. Other than it's inability to withstand the onslaught of 3 deer charging you at 60 mph, I really don't have anything bad to say about it. In fact, given the sheer impact of the colision, I walked away from it with a meer airbag burn on my uniform coat and not a single other scratch. I wasn't even very sore the next day...
I have not been close to an actual Leaf yet. This part of the country is still very aprehensive when it comes to EV's. They really have just recent;y embraced the hybrid in the last 5 years or so. I'm still rather certain the plun-in Prius has yet to grace us with it's presence here in our corner of the universe either. I am interested in in seeing it and maybe even taking it for a spin, but something with that short of a range in this rather scarsely populated farming community would not be readily accepted. The Tesla S, however, would be easily accepted with it's 300 mile range. (I'm about 75 or so miles from Indianapolis, but there REALLY isn't anything between Indy and here!!) I really have no way to compare the Leaf to the Versa since I haven't seen one. However, since we have no Suzuki stealership around here, I have my minor maintenance done at a Nissan dealer here in town. Last month, I actually went out and sat in a new Versa Note. Rather well equipped, the car stickered for $18,500 if I remember correctly, and really impressed me with the build quality. I rather enjoy the "quirky" exterior design, and the interior was well on par if not exceeding the competition. The main selling point for me was the imaculate paint in the car. Pearl coat in an "entry-level" car under $20k was amazing to me. To top it all off, I was told I could order a 6MT in any trim level (you may know for sure if this is true better than me) to avoid the crappy CVT. This is definately NOT common among domestic cars and it's becomming more uncommon among most imports as well.
I've always been a fan of hatchbacks as I like a smaller car, but hate a cramped feel. Having briefly owed a 2010 Nissan Versa (which was totaled before it's 4th payment in an unfortunate widlife safari excursion... ) I have to say, the outside was small, I averaged WELL over 30 mpg's, and the interior was ENORMOUS. Huge in comparison to my SX4. I really enjoyed the electronic speed sensitive steering, the sporty-ish tune of the FBW throttle, and having the pre-CVT traditional automatic, it shifted quick and readily like an entirely different and more exspensive car would. Other than it's inability to withstand the onslaught of 3 deer charging you at 60 mph, I really don't have anything bad to say about it. In fact, given the sheer impact of the colision, I walked away from it with a meer airbag burn on my uniform coat and not a single other scratch. I wasn't even very sore the next day...
Quite frankly, I'm surprised you liked the Versa given it generally has a poor reputation. It's considered one of the worst cars sold in America by quite a few auto critics. The Versa Note is a new body style that they brought over from the JDM. Cars like the Yaris, Fit, and Note ran around in Japan almost ten years before they came to the US market.
The Honda Fit is said to be among the best of these subcompacts and the Mazda2 has a good reputation for its driving dynamics. The Fiesta is also praised and the ST version is adored even among performance car enthusiasts.
However, nearly all these cars came under fire recently when IIHS crash-tested them in the new small over-lap test and most of them did rather poorly. The Honda Fit's poor crash test results even caused Consumer Reports to pull their "Recommended" rating from the car. Say what you will about CR, but they will only recommend cars that meet their minimum criteria for reliability, safety, and overall performance. I've followed them for years and generally find their ratings to have the best real-world validity.
Keep in mind that this is the same crash test that earned the Kizashi the top score in its segment with only the new Honda Accord to match it. The Camry bombed it despite the redesign.
Personally, I wouldn't want to drive a car smaller than a compact in the United States. Americans drive faster and many people drive bigger cars like midsize and full size SUVs. Both of these factors work against you if you get in an accident while driving a subcompact.
Consider that all of these subcompacts come from foreign countries where roads are narrower, gas is more expensive, and the speed limit is lower. Even the "American" branded ones like the Spark and Fiesta were actually designed overseas (Korea and Germany, respectfully) and were originally intended for their roads. Basically, these cars barely meet American safety standards. As I've stated earlier, the Yaris, Fit, Versa Note, Mazda2, and many of the Scion models all were sold in the JDM long before they debuted in the US. This goes to show that they were really designed for Japan where the speeds driven are much lower therefore the crash test performance of these cars isn't up to the highest standards. In Japan, elevated highways (which are like their freeways through cities) have a max speed limit of 60 km/h. That's not even 40 mph.
Having driven compacts for most of my driving experience, it was a noticeable upgrade to drive a midsize like the Kizashi. I know some people consider this car a "compact" and compare it to the Chevy Cruze, but that's really a mistake. It drives and feels like a midsize, not a compact. It's simply more comfortable, more quiet, and safer than nearly all compacts on the market. Frankly put, I'd probably never want to go back to a compact unless it can deliver this level of comfort and refinement which most don't. The exception would be a performance-oriented sports compact like the WRX but buying a car like that serves a different purpose.
Here's the article about the subcompacts doing poorly in the new IIHS crash tests:
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/01/22/iihs ... rlap-cras/
The Honda Fit is said to be among the best of these subcompacts and the Mazda2 has a good reputation for its driving dynamics. The Fiesta is also praised and the ST version is adored even among performance car enthusiasts.
However, nearly all these cars came under fire recently when IIHS crash-tested them in the new small over-lap test and most of them did rather poorly. The Honda Fit's poor crash test results even caused Consumer Reports to pull their "Recommended" rating from the car. Say what you will about CR, but they will only recommend cars that meet their minimum criteria for reliability, safety, and overall performance. I've followed them for years and generally find their ratings to have the best real-world validity.
Keep in mind that this is the same crash test that earned the Kizashi the top score in its segment with only the new Honda Accord to match it. The Camry bombed it despite the redesign.
Personally, I wouldn't want to drive a car smaller than a compact in the United States. Americans drive faster and many people drive bigger cars like midsize and full size SUVs. Both of these factors work against you if you get in an accident while driving a subcompact.
Consider that all of these subcompacts come from foreign countries where roads are narrower, gas is more expensive, and the speed limit is lower. Even the "American" branded ones like the Spark and Fiesta were actually designed overseas (Korea and Germany, respectfully) and were originally intended for their roads. Basically, these cars barely meet American safety standards. As I've stated earlier, the Yaris, Fit, Versa Note, Mazda2, and many of the Scion models all were sold in the JDM long before they debuted in the US. This goes to show that they were really designed for Japan where the speeds driven are much lower therefore the crash test performance of these cars isn't up to the highest standards. In Japan, elevated highways (which are like their freeways through cities) have a max speed limit of 60 km/h. That's not even 40 mph.
Having driven compacts for most of my driving experience, it was a noticeable upgrade to drive a midsize like the Kizashi. I know some people consider this car a "compact" and compare it to the Chevy Cruze, but that's really a mistake. It drives and feels like a midsize, not a compact. It's simply more comfortable, more quiet, and safer than nearly all compacts on the market. Frankly put, I'd probably never want to go back to a compact unless it can deliver this level of comfort and refinement which most don't. The exception would be a performance-oriented sports compact like the WRX but buying a car like that serves a different purpose.
Here's the article about the subcompacts doing poorly in the new IIHS crash tests:
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/01/22/iihs ... rlap-cras/
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sx4rocious
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I too was rather surprised at how much I liked the Versa. I'm not a small guy at nearly 6 feet and about 215 pounds, so MOST subcompacts and even many compacts make me feel cramped and enormous. My wife and I had a 2000 VW Jetta when we first got married that I replaced my 1998 Buick Regal with. The Regal being a midsize left me plenty of room all around. The seats in that thing were only slightly less comfortable and padded than the Laz-E-boy in my living room. Both front seats had seperate arm rests attached directly to the seats so they moved with the seats along with a center console in between. When we moved on to the Jetta, the center console WAS the armrest, and even then it wasn't big enough to put my arm on. The back seat of the Jetta barely had enough room to even be called a backseat. When my daughter was born, we had great difficulty putting her baby-carrier behind even the passenger seat when my wife was in the car (she's a beautiful 5 foot 2 and 120 pounds). We had the Jetta exactly 20 minutes before regretting the trade from the Buick.
Fast forward about 10 years, and I'm driving a base model 2007 Ford F-150 36 Miles a day one-way to work. I loved the room, as we could place my daughter between us and still have enough room to strech out in the standard cab truck. The mpg however, and the impending birth of our second child dictated the trade from the truck to the Versa. My wife had a HHR at the time (not really as much room as you would expect for a wagon...) so we really were more focused on the mpg's than anything since ti would be more of a work car for me than anything. The HHR and later the Kizashi are our road trip cars. The interior of the Versa was CAVERNOUS compared to the Jetta for instance, and this is what initially attracted me to the car. I also drove and really liked a 6MT Ford Focus, but the extremely loud and overly busy interior was confusing and distracting to me. So much so that I simply had to pass on the Ford. I still feel this way about the Focus, and even more so about the Fiesta, but this is the was automotive design is heading as evident in the new GM interiors in the Spark and Sonic (which is said to be designed with a "motorcycle feel" in the instrument panel). This is the same thing that turned me away from the fit, and that ridiculous center-mounted speedo in the Yaris a few years ago made me physically ill. So all in all, the SX4 was a perfect replacement for the totaled Versa in that it was roomy enough not to make me feel "stuck" in the car, the interior had a high-dollar feel while being understated enough, it had enough gadgets to keep me happy without having gadgets for the sake of having gadgets, and the deal I got on the car was better than any replacement Versa I could find at the time.
I looked at, and drove (aside from the Yaris due to the aforementioned illness inducing instrument cluster) all of the vehicles you spoke about other than the Mazda 2 which we have no dealer network for here. Of all of them, the Versa actually was the best! I'm rather picky myself, so believe me when I say that it even surprised me! i even thought maybe there is some validity to the "Wednesday" car superstition my dad always talked about since most everyone else disliked the Versa. I haven't driven a Note, but like I said, if anything happens (knock on wood) to my SX4, it would be one of the first on my list to test as a suitable replacement. The Focus (assuming I can get over the "blingy" interior...) Cuise Eco, New Corolla, the new Mazda3, and especialy the Subaru Impreza (have no use for the WRX, but GOLLY do I want one!!) would also make the list.
Fast forward about 10 years, and I'm driving a base model 2007 Ford F-150 36 Miles a day one-way to work. I loved the room, as we could place my daughter between us and still have enough room to strech out in the standard cab truck. The mpg however, and the impending birth of our second child dictated the trade from the truck to the Versa. My wife had a HHR at the time (not really as much room as you would expect for a wagon...) so we really were more focused on the mpg's than anything since ti would be more of a work car for me than anything. The HHR and later the Kizashi are our road trip cars. The interior of the Versa was CAVERNOUS compared to the Jetta for instance, and this is what initially attracted me to the car. I also drove and really liked a 6MT Ford Focus, but the extremely loud and overly busy interior was confusing and distracting to me. So much so that I simply had to pass on the Ford. I still feel this way about the Focus, and even more so about the Fiesta, but this is the was automotive design is heading as evident in the new GM interiors in the Spark and Sonic (which is said to be designed with a "motorcycle feel" in the instrument panel). This is the same thing that turned me away from the fit, and that ridiculous center-mounted speedo in the Yaris a few years ago made me physically ill. So all in all, the SX4 was a perfect replacement for the totaled Versa in that it was roomy enough not to make me feel "stuck" in the car, the interior had a high-dollar feel while being understated enough, it had enough gadgets to keep me happy without having gadgets for the sake of having gadgets, and the deal I got on the car was better than any replacement Versa I could find at the time.
I looked at, and drove (aside from the Yaris due to the aforementioned illness inducing instrument cluster) all of the vehicles you spoke about other than the Mazda 2 which we have no dealer network for here. Of all of them, the Versa actually was the best! I'm rather picky myself, so believe me when I say that it even surprised me! i even thought maybe there is some validity to the "Wednesday" car superstition my dad always talked about since most everyone else disliked the Versa. I haven't driven a Note, but like I said, if anything happens (knock on wood) to my SX4, it would be one of the first on my list to test as a suitable replacement. The Focus (assuming I can get over the "blingy" interior...) Cuise Eco, New Corolla, the new Mazda3, and especialy the Subaru Impreza (have no use for the WRX, but GOLLY do I want one!!) would also make the list.
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sx4rocious
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Also, given my children are seldomly in "my" car as it is normally solely my work vehicle, I worry a lot less about crash tests as i probably should. The exception to this would be this winter since we have gotten an exuberant amount of snow, and our Kizashi is a GTS models sans AWD. Since my SX4 DD is a crossover model with AWD, we have all but parked the Kizashi for the winter.
I also love a good mid sized, but I'm a hatch-backer at heart!! ( I told you I was wierd!!)
I also love a good mid sized, but I'm a hatch-backer at heart!! ( I told you I was wierd!!)
When Americans come to their senses and start buying appropriately sized vehicles, you will see the "cheapness" of the compact go away. In Europe, the cars are VERY well equipped because size and luxury are not related like they are in the US. People want a nice small car.
But, back to diesel/hybrid/electric:
http://www.cartalk.com/content/volvo-v6 ... -car-isn’t
But, back to diesel/hybrid/electric:
http://www.cartalk.com/content/volvo-v6 ... -car-isn’t
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~tc~ wrote:When Americans come to their senses and start buying appropriately sized vehicles, you will see the "cheapness" of the compact go away. In Europe, the cars are VERY well equipped because size and luxury are not related like they are in the US. People want a nice small car.
But, back to diesel/hybrid/electric:
http://www.cartalk.com/content/volvo-v6 ... -car-isn’t
Yeah, the economic recession from 2008 had Americans seeking cheaper cars and holding onto their older ones too. However, I think it's a good thing for Americans to realize they don't need such large cars, especially if they live in a city. Much like in cities in Japan, you don't drive very fast around large US cities.
I recall the fad in the early 2000's with SUVs. Everybody bought them despite few actually needing them. I'd rather have compacts running around than large SUVs that gobble fuel and are a greater risk to others in accidents.
That being said, if I lived in a rural area with a lot of highways and freeways, I'd avoid a smaller car.
I also agree about compacts being upscale in foreign countries. I can't say for Europe, but in Japan, I've seen higher trims and nicer editions for compacts. Even the Corolla was sold in upscale trims you'd not find in the US. For example, the Acura TSX as we know it started off in Japan as the "Euro Accord" years before it came to the US. It was an upscale version of the JDM Accord which was then imported to the US as an entry-level luxury Acura.
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sx4rocious
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I disagree totally about living in a rural area and driving a larger car. I'm sure all statistics will back me when I say most injury inducing accidents happen in well populated areas or at slower speeds. I currently live in the most populated place I have ever lived. The county I live in has a population of about 110,000. There is one of the most traveled East\West interstates, and 3 major US highways intersecting right down town and almost ALL the fatalities happen inside the city limits, or involving operators who were intoxicated or otherwise impaired. I rarely surpass the speed limit on the highway and have never really felt afraid for my safety because I drive a smaller car. In fact, I have often miscalculated stopping distance or even the length of the car while driving something much larger. I would actually prefer a compact on the highways.