Fuel additives?

[bootymac]

Again, no one is arguing the necessity of fuel additives. They're not part of required maintenance to prevent engine failure, which is why manufacturers don't specify it. You can motor on happily ever after without touching any additives. This, however, does not mean all fuel additives are useless.

PS: BMW sells rebranded Chevron Techron:


Taken from BMW Technical Bulletin #13 05 06:

SITUATION
Recent field experiences have shown a significant increase in various drivability complaints due to excessive carbon deposits in engine's combustion chambers, on the intake valves and fuel injectors. 

The overall rise in carbon deposits accumulation is generally attributed to poor gasoline quality, namely, low level of cleaning additives and fuel contamination. 

TECHNICAL BACKGROUND
Combustion chamber deposit formation is a by-product of the gasoline burning process. Fuel injector and intake valve deposits may become less troublesome with the recently introduced Top Tier Detergent Gasoline deposit control standards, which are exceeding the detergent requirements imposed by the EPA since 1995. 

However, vehicles that do not exclusively use a Top Tier Detergent Gasoline, or are regularly driven in severe service conditions, such as stop-and-go traffic, high ambient temperatures, and high altitude can experience performance problems caused by intake system and combustion chamber deposits.

RECOMMENDATION
BMW recommends using TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline of minimum octane rating of AKI 91 and with alcohol content of less then 10% by volume (or any other oxygenates with up to 2.8% of oxygen by weight). Only the exclusive usage of TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline provides the full benefit of reducing deposits formation. For more information related to TOP TIER Gasoline refer to SI B13 02 06. 

If the TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline is unavailable, we recommend BMW Group Fuel System Cleaner Plus (PN 82 14 0 413 341) be added to the gas tank. For optimum cleaning and deposits control, add a 20 fl. oz. bottle every 3,000 miles when refueling. 

Regular use of BMW Group Fuel System Cleaner Plus can help address carbon deposits related symptoms listed above. By removing these deposits, an engine may experience restored power, performance and fuel efficiency, a smoother idle running, lower emissions, and reduced octane requirement. 

BMW Group Fuel System Cleaner Plus uses polyether amine TECHRON® based technology developed and patented by Chevron. BMW Group Fuel System Cleaner Plus has proven to clean up deposits in fuel injectors, ports & intake valves and reduces the harmful effects of combustion chamber deposits. It helps restore performance lost due to deposit build-up. 

Chevron and BMW have run an extensive "no harm" tests with polyether amine technology. When used as directed, it will not harm catalytic converters, oxygen sensors, or any other mechanical components of the engine, or fuel delivery system. 

The effectiveness of the additive depends on its presence in the gasoline in large concentrations for short periods of time. One treatment is usually sufficient, but a second treatment (one 20 oz bottle per each, consecutive full tank of gas) may give additional benefits. To keep your fuel intake system clean, we recommend usage at every 3000 miles. 

Additionally, vehicle's fuel sending units equipped with silver plated resistor card/contacts are especially vulnerable to attacks by elemental sulfur and/or hydrogen sulfide found in fuels. Adding BMW Group Fuel System Cleaner Plus immediately upon noticing erratic fuel gauge behavior may, in many cases, restore proper performance due to the additive's ability to remove the harmful sulfur compounds from the sending unit's contact surface. Additionally, BMW Group Fuel System Cleaner Plus can help protect the fuel gauge from future malfunctioning by coating all metal surfaces of the fuel system. 

BMW Group Fuel System Cleaner Plus.
PN 82 14 0 413 341,
1 bottle, 20 fl. oz.

Note the specific mention of polyether amine (PEA).

[bmw&kizzyownr]

BMW sells a bevy of products, like: insect remover, glass cleaner, wheel cleaner gel, polishing cloths, etc. etc. They will sell anything that they think customers want so they can make a $$ buck on it. However, if you ask a BMW mechanic if they would use the products (BMW glass cleaner, fuel additive, polishing cloths, etc) on their own cars.... I bet they would say NO WAY (at least 'unofficially')! I.e. they would use water/vinegar or windex on the glass, bypass the fuel additives completely, and use a chamois on the vehicle body.

http://www.shopbmwusa.com/ACCESSORIES/G ... E-PRODUCTS

In all my years of driving (too many to mention unfortunately), I've never had a mechanic recommend a fuel additive.... and I greatly respect their expertise, like I do yours and that of KuroNekko. And I will admit...from what I've read and heard, fuel additives appear to be of some benefit to some owners in some/limited situations. However, I hope this thread has discouraged 'a few' owners from using these products because I don't think they will receive a 'tangible' benefit for their $$$. Again, just my opinion... but I hope owners only spend $$ on the essentials and get to retire early, it's well worth it (if that's what they choose/want to do of course) !! Also, don't want to sound patronizing...but hope I haven't been too rough in my dialogue/diatribe with you and KuroNekko because from the threads I've read....you both are two extremely knowledgeable experts on the Kizashi & automobiles and I've learned a lot from both of you. Thanks & that's it for me (audience claps) on this thread.... I believe I've made the point I was trying to make (whatever that was )

[KuroNekko]

Hmm, regarding your last post and this comment: "One of the remedies is the use of additives to counteract the ethanol. It's entirely possible that Irv, or his mechanics, use these additives to keep the car running well. Omission of any talk of additives is not proof he uses none for his vehicle."

Yes, almost anything is possible. But please see this link in which Irv discusses maintenance (among other things) on his Volvo. He discusses longevity of his car and what maintenance that has been performed, including frequent oil changes, on the vehicle. He also says "After 41 years of ownership, I am pretty well aware of how to fix almost everything. However, those things that require a lift go to the same mechanic (Nino Gambino) who has kept me on the road all these years". So you're assuming whenever the mechanic has the car on the lift....he then lowers the car and puts in a fuel additive. Sure, that's possible....but not probable. Also, Irv doesn't mention fuel additives and I'm fairly sure he would if he felt they were important (ie. he added it during fill ups or oil changes). Regarding your comment on Ford's ownership of Volvo. He states in a Volvo Club of America forum (1-15-2010) interview...when speaking about concerns of Chinese ownership of Volvo the following: " I think people felt the same when Volvo was purchased by Ford but if anything, Ford became a better car due to Volvo's engineering and Volvo became a better car due to Ford's investment to help in Volvo's research and development.
I don't believe Mr. Gordon would agree with several of your statements and I'm pretty sure he would be qualified as an expert on the Volvo product. Just my opinion though.

http://www.designnews.com/document.asp? ... ut=article

Oh well, let's assume the SAE article is right on. It was published (if I read that right) in 1983 (10-31-83). Did Suzuki, along with many other automobile manufacturers, really take heed of that info, and did they reference use of fuel additives in their owner's manuals? The answer is NO! I've reviewed section 7 of my Kizashi manual and no mention of the use of fuel additives, even under the 'severe driving conditions' schedule. It says this schedule is to be used for delivery service, police, taxi, etc. Also when idling and/or low speed operation in stop-and-go traffic. Suzuki must have missed that but I'm sure it's captured in other manufacturer's maintenance schedules, right? Well, I've reviewed manuals by Isuzu, Honda, Toyota, and BMW. No mention of fuel additives. I wonder why??? It's also not in my BMW or Toyota service manuals (sorry, I didn't keep the Honda & Isuzu ones). Maybe it's in the service manual for the Kizashi....I admit I haven't found time to read it cover to cover. Somehow I doubt it though.

OK, maybe this dialogue doesn't convince you... as I believe my days of reasoned debate (I'm losing my short term memory....as many would agree) are coming to an end. I have a dozen other points to articulate....but don't want to make my answer any longer than it already is. However, maybe you might want to admit that use of fuel additives are at least "questionable"? Just a thought... again, happy motoring!

I agree that fuel additives are not absolutely necessary. Do they actually help? I believe so, but many argue that they don't and turn to the owner's manual on the topic. However, consider this point about "what's recommended in the owner's manual":
Synthetic motor oil is not recommended by Suzuki nor many other makers of cars like family midsizes. Does this then mean synthetics offer no significant benefit to a car like the Kizashi? I think the monumental amount of evidence supporting synthetic motor oil in just about any car engine other than a Wankel would convince anyone otherwise. However, much like fuel additives, there is no mention of requiring synthetic motor oil in the owner's manual as the car was intended to run on conventional oil. This would mean conventional oil is what the engine was designed to run. The question here is then does that mean conventional oil is the best? Most would effectively argue that it's not and that synthetics offer many benefits although not technically being necessary.
This is basically the foundation of my argument for fuel additives. Just because it's not necessary (like synthetic oil) does not mean it's ineffective or a waste of money.

Lastly, I wouldn't consider Irv Gordon an "expert" on Volvos. He's merely a long-time owner and even has a professional mechanic servicing his car. Given Mr. Gordon is not an engineer, I can care less about his remarks on Ford's impact on Volvo or Chinese ownership in the engineering and quality of the cars. It's simply fact that Volvo and Ford had platform and powertrain sharing during Ford's ownership. Reliability data from that era also show Volvo took a dive. The Swedish cars (Volvo and Saab) used to make some of the most durable and longest-lasting cars until their American ownership. Ford and GM lowered the quality of Volvo and Saab, respectively. In fact, GM arguably killed Saab. I've even watched a documentary on Saab in which American executives forbid Saab to engineer their cars to be better. In essence, Saab's engineers were forced to make a car substandard to what they would consider a real Saab.

Also, given Irv Gordon's ties with the brand, I'm not one bit surprised he would say good things for Volvo. However, if he was to honestly speak about whether he thinks a MY2003 Volvo S60 would last as long as his MY1966 Volvo P1800, I'd think he would have a very different remark. He has made it clear he has no intention of replacing his car and I'd say that's for good reason, especially considering no new Volvo can really replace its quality.

It's simply in the data that Volvo's reliability and quality tanked with Ford ownership. Check CR's reliability ratings for their models from the Ford ownership era (1999 to 2008). You also don't see high mileage Volvos compared to older Volvos from the 70's and 80's. Heck, Mazda's reliability soared once Ford dumped them and I can attest to Ford's ill-effect on Mazda. My previous Mazda3's most problematic parts had "FoMoCo" stamped on them.

Now don't get me wrong; I don't think all Fords and other domestics are low quality or poorly engineered. However, when it comes to Detroit's ownership or collaboration with foreign cars, it's historically known that it's to the detriment of the foreign brand's quality.

[KuroNekko]

Also, don't want to sound patronizing...but hope I haven't been too rough in my dialogue/diatribe with you and KuroNekko because from the threads I've read....you both are two extremely knowledgeable experts on the Kizashi & automobiles and I've learned a lot from both of you.

bmw&kizzyownr,

Don't worry. This is what these threads are for. It's for discussing experiences, beliefs, facts, and reasons. It's only expected that some people would support a view while others are opposed or cynical. The debate only makes the thread more interesting and useful so people can see both sides. Just because you have a view that counters mine doesn't mean you're insulting me.

[bootymac]

If I were in the US, I'd mail you a bottle of Techron or Regane to try out

[LPSISRL]

[quote="bootymac
Buy a bottle of Gumout Regane next time it's on sale (<$5) and try it out![/quote]

I first read this as "Rogaine" and wondered, "who wants a hairy fuel system!"

[bootymac]

[quote="bootymac
Buy a bottle of Gumout Regane next time it's on sale (<$5) and try it out!

I first read this as "Rogaine" and wondered, "who wants a hairy fuel system!" [/quote]
It's for the driver

[bmw&kizzyownr]

I know I won't sway many people's "opinions" on this subject but just wanted to post a recent article I saw on BBC autos.

I was interested in the "premium does not equal better" section...here it is for what it's worth. They didn't reference use of a SEM (scanning electron microscope) to examine engine or fuel line components... but I'm assuming they accomplished some technical evaluation to make their determination. The article is very short...will admit.

http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20140929 ... ssary-evil

[Woodie]

PS: BMW sells rebranded Chevron Techron:


Taken from BMW Technical Bulletin #13 05 06:

The overall rise in carbon deposits accumulation is generally attributed to poor gasoline quality, namely, low level of cleaning additives and fuel contamination. 

BMW recommends using TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline of minimum octane rating of AKI 91 and with alcohol content of less then 10% by volume (or any other oxygenates with up to 2.8% of oxygen by weight). Only the exclusive usage of TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline provides the full benefit of reducing deposits formation. For more information related to TOP TIER Gasoline refer to SI B13 02 06. 

If the TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline is unavailable, we recommend BMW Group Fuel System Cleaner Plus (PN 82 14 0 413 341) be added to the gas tank.

There, I reduced that down to the gist of the matter.

[bootymac]

Soooooooo I was catching up on Fifth Gear episodes and they did a feature on restoring lost HP due to wear and age. The test car was a 1995 VW Corrado VR6 on 95 RON (or 91 octane) and produced 190bhp when new. The test was done in March 2013 and the baseline dyno was 177.5 bhp at the time of the test. Here are the changes:

1. Redex fuel injector cleaner: 183.4bhp (car was run for a week to allow cleaner to work)
2. New air filter, oil, oil filter: 185.4bhp
3. New spark plugs, plug wires: 188.7bhp



Notes:
- Redex contains <0.1% benzene, a strong cleaning solvent but is still weaker than PEA
- Fuel additives can only restore power lost due to dirty fuel components
- The detergents in 91 octane gas are not strong enough to prevent dirt build up

So if you use low octane gas and your car is a few years old, a fuel treatment every so often could be beneficial.